CITES success bringing guitars into Canada?

[Jalexanderdixon]

I am hoping to buy a rosewood backed acoustic in the US before long and drive it myself back to Canada. I'm wondering what experiences others have had with similar scenarios?

On a cross-border trip yesterday I asked the Canadian customs officers their opinion (as I have received no response to an email to the CITES team). They said I need to look it up on AIRS as well as CITES. He said that AIRS governs what can be imported by whom. There are some things that can only be imported by commercial operations while others require permits if brought in by a business but not if brought by an individual.

Here's what I've found:

CITES: Brazilian rosewood (nigra) is covered under Appendix I in Canada and requires a permit. All other rosewood is covered under Appendix II. By my read it does not need a permit if it is not alive and is being carried in small quantities by a tourist (see http://www.ec.gc.ca/cites/default.as...0E5322-1#_03_2)

AIRS: guitars are not subject to import permits under AIRS as they are under category 92-02 (http://airs-sari.inspection.gc.ca/AI...sions-eng.aspx)

Anyone else have experience with the above? As always I will declare for duties and taxes, but I wish I had a response from the CITES team. A misinterpretation on my part could result in a seized guitar at the border.

[HHP]

Ask yourself if the average customs agent will do the same research you did and will interpret it the same way you did.

Or, did that same agent just get reamed for lacking vigilance just before you arrive at the booth?

[Borderdon]

I'll follow any replies here with interest.
I bought a (used ) Martin D1 a couple of years back in Seattle, upon crossing the border I declared it, but the official had no interest in seeing it, or asking any other questions except value. With spruce & mahogany there'd have been no issues, but documentation required for rosewood is another thing.
Don

[HHP]

Originally Posted by Borderdon

I'll follow any replies here with interest.
I bought a (used ) Martin D1 a couple of years back in Seattle, upon crossing the border I declared it, but the official had no interest in seeing it, or asking any other questions except value. With spruce & mahogany there'd have been no issues, but documentation required for rosewood is another thing.
Don

Problem is, its not just the big parts. A dodgy saddle, nut, or tuning buttons can get you into bureaucratic limbo.

Few years ago, a piper got stopped in Canada because of a tiny decorative rig of ivory on his pipes. He offered to remove the part to no avail and had a rough time getting his instrument back.

[Vindellama]

Until I see people on the forum talking about having their guitar confiscated, instead of tales of a friend of someone they know. I wouldn't be to worried about crossing with a guitar.
You are not bringing a piece of unfinished undocumented wood into the country. You are bringing a guitar, which woods were already legally bought and used by the builder.
Officers will only be interested in charging taxes from importation and such.
They'll only confiscated it if they really don't like you. Some will say that they can do that if they want it, but it reeks of abuse of power. And you would probably get your guitar back after a lot of headache from litigation and such. Afterwards you could also get your money back from the legal procedures with a damages lawsuit and such.
Recently someone I know made a tour across all of Europe, with a luthier made OM-18 with a fretboard and bridge that screams BRW. And had 0 issues.

[The Bard Rocks]

Go at a busy time and chances are they won't even look at it. Having said that, the only time (1978, to give perspective) I took an instrument from the US to Canada was one I'd owned for some years. Their concern was that I not leave it there (fat chance) and when I explained I was gong to a bluegrass festival and wanted to parking lot pick, they were good with it. I got similar questions when I returned.

Today, I'd want a statement from the maker stating the woods used and that they were legally procured. And I would not produce it unless queried.

[Halcyon/Tinker]

Have you contacted Envronment Canada? They are in charge of CITES...

[menhir]

Well, I for one am not going to saunter over the border either way assuming the customs agent will be too busy, etc. to want to bother about my little old guitar.

One does not simply walk into Mordor, ya know.

And I'm sure as heck not going to completely dismiss stories of confiscation and other problems just because I didn't happen to personally know the persons involved...Not any more than I'm going to happily trip over the border because some other person posts "don't worry about it."

One time pays for all.

CITES enforcement is now a hot mess. One thing I am confident of is that the border agents probably aren't intimately familiar with all the rules, regulations, and procedures of the act. Not enough so that I'm going to risk my guitar(s) on a "probability" that nothing will go wrong. At least until things settle down a bit.

Both my "good" guitars have rosewood parts. One was purchased well before CITES, the other one purchased from Canada not long ago.

Even while researching my purchases, I came across conflicting information.
Some had said that after everything cleared, the documentation would arrive with the guitar. I later found that the documentation stayed with customs. I'm now hearing that if I'm going to traverse the border again with my guitar, I'd have to apply again. And probably pay again. Honestly, I don't know what to believe anymore. Any one site I visit doesn't seem to cover all the bases.

I've heard of calls for a guitar "passport" that once purchased and cleared, could be carried with the instrument in question. This seems like a reasonable solution that would certainly smooth out the process and probably cut out a lot of backlog, but I've also heard that as of this time no one is interested in implementing something along those lines.

OK...So no real answers from me. But I'll be following this thread with interest in the hopes to get something beyond "It probably won't happen."

Again, One time pays for all.

I like my guitars.

[Silurian]

It goes without saying that you should ensure all rules, regulations and procedures are adhered to.
However, I suspect that border agents would be more interested in whether or not your guitar is stuffed with weed or coke, rather than what woods it's made from.

[AZLiberty]

Originally Posted by Jalexanderdixon

I am hoping to buy a rosewood backed acoustic in the US before long and drive it myself back to Canada. I'm wondering what experiences others have had with similar scenarios?

The current "rule" is that you can transport a personally owned guitar with rosewood across the border::

If the guitar contains any species of Dalbergia or several species of Bubinga then the instrument must contain less than 10 kg of these species. No paperwork is required.

Exception: If the instrument contains Dalbergia Negra you need CITES paperwork and frankly this is just about impossible as an individual.

Now how competent the customs agents are is another matter.

[1Charlie]

Originally Posted by AZLiberty

The current "rule" is that you can transport a personally owned guitar with rosewood across the border::

If the guitar contains any species of Dalbergia or several species of Bubinga then the instrument must contain less than 10 kg of these species. No paperwork is required.

Exception: If the instrument contains Dalbergia Negra you need CITES paperwork and frankly this is just about impossible as an individual.

Now how competent the customs agents are is another matter.

+1. This is the true scoop.

[colchar]

Is it a model regularly sold here in Canada? If so, I can't see there being any problem. But keep in mind the exchange rate and any duties you might have to pay as they might not make it worthwhile to even bother.

[Rosewood99]

I'm curious to how the border agents determine what wood it is. Do they really know the difference between rosewood, mahogany, wenge, etc.? What if you told them it's laminate? Would that make a difference and would they take a sample of the wood and test it?

[menhir]

Originally Posted by paulzoom

I'm curious to how the border agents determine what wood it is. Do they really know the difference between rosewood, mahogany, wenge, etc.? ...

They probably can't. On a related note, I had read that the reason CITES was so all-inclusive with both endangered and similar non-endangered woods...difference species of rosewoods for example...was because it was too hard to tell them apart. They took a better-safe-than-sorry approach.

I'm not at all against what CITES is trying to accomplish. I'm not convinced they thought through the best way to accomplish it.

[Jalexanderdixon]

Originally Posted by Halcyon/Tinker

Have you contacted Envronment Canada? They are in charge of CITES...

Yes, I've emailed with no response. There is documentation on the Canadian government's website that the broader group of rosewood were added to the list only last fall and implemented as of January, so it went pretty fast. Apparently they were doing this around high end furniture issues and weren't prepared for the influx of small cases like instruments. The customs agent told me good luck in getting a response.

Most of what has been written in this thread is consistent with my understanding, but I like to go into a situation like this with lots of documentation. I've found customs officers to be fair if you are straightforward and willing to pay duties. However, I was told yesterday they are expected to know far more than is reasonable. In cases of pet food, they are supposed to make a judgment on the pet's health, yet they have no veterinary training. Now they are supposed to be able to differentiate species of rosewood.

If I go ahead, I plan to have:
-bill of sale
-manufacturer specifications indicating all species of wood used
-print out of AIR categorization indicating no import permits are required
-print out of CITES appendices and documentation that no CITES permits are required

I am still hoping to get a response from the Ministry confirming that last piece and likely won't proceed with a purchase until I do.

I should add that if I buy new from a dealer, rather than a personal sale, the good ones are providing CITES permits at little extra cost (they buy them I. Bulk in the US for $10 each and are allowed to fill them out themselves).