To Sub or....

krisls · #1 01-30-2015, 10:26 PM

Hi Guys
Been using a pair of K10's for a while now and love them as live speakers. I will say I thought the Yam DXR10 had a slight edge in straight sound but I got a good deal and I think the K's are better as giggers. Bump stops, finish etc...

Anyway, I did a Gig on Australia Day, last Mon, a Duo thing which I don't do often but when I can it's fun ( two guitar two vocal ). This day being a Public Hol and a busy Irish pub in the city it was pretty much guaranteed to be a good time.

So the PA was supplied all K - 4 K10's and a Ksub. Average sized pub with a central oval bar and a courtyard off the side. Crowd of around a hundred and just slightly noisy. Cheerful though.

Anyway I was pretty much in the - a Sub does nuthin' much for acoustic music. Ummmm. Slightly raised stage with the 4 10's at the end. Outer two straight out about 45o the inner two angled down that 7o and toed in a little to double as monitors. Sub front and centre.

Wow what a fantastic sound. The percussive stuff just rocked and everything was clear as a bell with no distortion ( always a worry at gigs like this). I think I'm a convert... the only thing is now I'm pondering going to 8's and getting a sub. So much for keeping things light eh. Well mostly the 10's do it beautifully, but in a setting like this as I said.. wow.

Kris

pieterh · #2 01-31-2015, 04:19 AM

I'm wary of subs with acoustic guitar as a rule. A guitar's lowest fundamental frequency is around 82 hz, a decent sub will often cover the rage from say 150hz down to 35-40, depending. Even though the guitar's lowest frequency is ca 82 there is very little of the overall sound energy in that area which is why you can use the low cut on a preamp or mixer up to ca 200 hz with very little audible affect. Most of the bass that we enjoy from a guitar is made up of higher harmonics filling out the tone in a way that sounds warm and pleasing.

On the other hand I agree, percussive effects and specific styles can sound amazing with a sub but there is a danger that it could overpower the listener/audience if not done right.

I wonder if at your gig there was someone running sound. Just because the venue has subs doesn't necessarily mean that the guitar is going into the PA full-range. I would imagine that the lowest frequencies from the guitar were filtered off (say under 100 Hz) leaving enough of the low end to come from the subs without becoming messy. Bass frequencies generally are problematic as they are non-directional and due to their wavelengths can easily create standing waves - it sounds like someone has taken that into account and trimmed the system to work with the venue and your music.

Glad it was a good experience!

StevenL · #3 01-31-2015, 08:37 AM

Acoustic sounds great using a sub. There's plenty of energy down there to amplify correctly. It's not huge and won't rattle a wall, but it's there. And...if you're singing through a mic and have some low energy in your voice it really helps to have the sub. If it sounds good to you, good deal. Same here. I have 2 of the little EV ZXA1 subs.

I run 2 RCF 312a tops with the subs. Sounds great to me.

krisls · #4 01-31-2015, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pieterh

I'm wary of subs with acoustic guitar as a rule. A guitar's lowest fundamental frequency is around 82 hz, a decent sub will often cover the rage from say 150hz down to 35-40, depending. Even though the guitar's lowest frequency is ca 82 there is very little of the overall sound energy in that area which is why you can use the low cut on a preamp or mixer up to ca 200 hz with very little audible affect. Most of the bass that we enjoy from a guitar is made up of higher harmonics filling out the tone in a way that sounds warm and pleasing.

On the other hand I agree, percussive effects and specific styles can sound amazing with a sub but there is a danger that it could overpower the listener/audience if not done right.

I wonder if at your gig there was someone running sound. Just because the venue has subs doesn't necessarily mean that the guitar is going into the PA full-range. I would imagine that the lowest frequencies from the guitar were filtered off (say under 100 Hz) leaving enough of the low end to come from the subs without becoming messy. Bass frequencies generally are problematic as they are non-directional and due to their wavelengths can easily create standing waves - it sounds like someone has taken that into account and trimmed the system to work with the venue and your music.

Glad it was a good experience!

Hi Pieterh - More or less my thoughts. The tops were all set to ext sub and the Sub to Normal not the deep setting. I think the crossover is either 100 or 120 not sure which. Normally I would run a hipass on my mixer but on this day... No sound guy but it was all well setup. One guy on before and another duo after, all we had to do was tweak our individual settings which took two minutes.

The sound was just big and smooth and clean, no distortion anywhere. Admittedly the whole atmosphere added and it was a very up day. Not rushing out to buy a sub but I was duly impressed

Kris

Bear Davis · #5 01-31-2015, 06:42 PM

Outside of my L1 I only use Bass amps. The right Bass Amp set up in conjunction with the right pickup is impossible to beat IMHO.

Bobby1note · #6 02-01-2015, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krisls

Hi Guys
Been using a pair of K10's for a while now and love them as live speakers. I will say I thought the Yam DXR10 had a slight edge in straight sound but I got a good deal and I think the K's are better as giggers. Bump stops, finish etc...

Anyway, I did a Gig on Australia Day, last Mon, a Duo thing which I don't do often but when I can it's fun ( two guitar two vocal ). This day being a Public Hol and a busy Irish pub in the city it was pretty much guaranteed to be a good time.

So the PA was supplied all K - 4 K10's and a Ksub. Average sized pub with a central oval bar and a courtyard off the side. Crowd of around a hundred and just slightly noisy. Cheerful though.

Anyway I was pretty much in the - a Sub does nuthin' much for acoustic music. Ummmm. Slightly raised stage with the 4 10's at the end. Outer two straight out about 45o the inner two angled down that 7o and toed in a little to double as monitors. Sub front and centre.

Wow what a fantastic sound. The percussive stuff just rocked and everything was clear as a bell with no distortion ( always a worry at gigs like this). I think I'm a convert... the only thing is now I'm pondering going to 8's and getting a sub. So much for keeping things light eh. Well mostly the 10's do it beautifully, but in a setting like this as I said.. wow.

Kris

Good stuff Krisis. The benefits of using a sub(s), far outweigh any negatives, especially in larger and louder venues, and even more so outdoors. Not only will you benefit from low-end extension, but you'll also gain in clarity with your mains. This is also especially true when used with K-series mains.(as opposed to using "DEEP*, which seriously (negatively) impacts the mid and lower vocal range)

The concept of subs somehow "interfering" with acoustic instruments, just does not register with me. One has nothing to do with the other. FOH issues are simply a matter of poor or improper set-up. When using a pair of subs, clustering the subs for a cardioid pattern, will take care of 99% of room issues. Off-setting the subs so they're not directly positioned between large parallel walls, takes care of any standing-wave issues, and even then, it would only be noticed by those standing directly between those "reflective" walls. Separating the subs improperly, can lead to certain zones having phase-cancellation issues, and the creation of power-alleys,,, all of which are resolved with a cardioid arrangement(clustered subs).

krisls · #7 02-01-2015, 05:32 PM

Hi Bobby
My experience with Subs I will admit is basically zero and the reading/viewing on them is almost all DJ related, so not exactly relevant often. Not sure I would ever go Two Subs but the one set up as was sold me on the application in the right setting. I might look at a smaller EV or Yam some time or maybe just go the matching K. Not this week though.

Funny the DJ lot seem to think the K Sub is a bit wimpy for most apparently and maybe so for serious Doof, but for punchy clean pumping pop rock as we were doing it was a beautiful thing.

Kris

Bobby1note · #8 02-01-2015, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by krisls

Hi Bobby
My experience with Subs I will admit is basically zero and the reading/viewing on them is almost all DJ related, so not exactly relevant often. Not sure I would ever go Two Subs but the one set up as was sold me on the application in the right setting. I might look at a smaller EV or Yam some time or maybe just go the matching K. Not this week though.

Funny the DJ lot seem to think the K Sub is a bit wimpy for most apparently and maybe so for serious Doof, but for punchy clean pumping pop rock as we were doing it was a beautiful thing.

Kris

The K-subs are generally not well regarded among many sound guys unfortunately.

If you go with a small subs, take the time to audition a few in person. Give a listen to the Yorkville LS720P, or the Yorkville NX720P. Both are terrific compact subs, with very tight/clean punch. Highly portable too.

Of course, a single larger sub like the Yorkville LS801P will outperform pretty well any "pair" of compact subs, and that sub will cost a lot less in comparison. Mind you, that sub is quite large(135 lbs/on casters), but it's a beast as far as output is concerned.