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  #16  
Old 06-17-2011, 02:29 AM
Garthman Garthman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff M View Post
As long as you don't care that it will make your Baby Taylor sound much worse,
yes, you can.

Steel string guitars like the Baby Taylor are braced heavy to with stand the pull of the steel strings. Not a problem with steel strings, as they transmit much more energy to the top with that extra tension.
Nylon strings exert much less pull...hence transmit much less driving energy to the top.
That's why nylon stringed guitars are braced lightly, close to the edge of implosion, to get all they driving energy they can from the nylon strings.

(Just saw that Herb said the same thing. Sorry to repeat.)
No. Classical guitars are braced as much as they need to be to withstand the tension of the strings. When steel string guitars were developed from classical guitars it was found necessary to use heavier bracing because of the higher tension of the steel strings.

But that does not mean that nylon strings will not work on a steel string guitar. It is the amplitude of vibration of the string that produces the sound - obviously the tension of the string contributes to this but not so much as to negate the other factors.

Here are two vids:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYHvI0bguLQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHwAKLZp4zY

Listen to both and tell me how the sound differs.
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  #17  
Old 06-17-2011, 10:12 AM
john bange john bange is offline
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I think the classically trained guitarist playing their beautiful classical guitars would find the tone and volume lacking no matter how much was said about this subject. I envy their abilities and admire their instruments.
Having said this, you just have to try it to find out. As Garthman said, there are guitars out there which will not work with nylon but, there are guitars that will. You can quote all the theory you want.
The comment about the tuner posts while accurate, is an example of never having tried it. They work fine. The ratio is different but they work. The diameter of the post is not an issue.
I would never do this conversion to a Martin/Taylor etc. high end guitar but then I would never buy a high end guitar that was not made for nylon strings.
I converted a Recording King ROS616 that was fantastic for the type of music I play...folk/pop/jazz and way, way louder than the Korean Breedlove nylon string guitar I had. I am sure it would suck next to a fine classical guitar. I just do not like the non-radiused fret board and bridge and the 2" or greater nut that is comon on classicals.
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Last edited by john bange; 06-17-2011 at 10:34 AM. Reason: speling(humor)
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  #18  
Old 06-17-2011, 11:04 AM
Garthman Garthman is offline
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Originally Posted by john bange View Post
I think the classically trained guitarist playing their beautiful classical guitars would find the tone and volume lacking no matter how much was said about this subject. I envy their abilities and admire their instruments.
Having said this, you just have to try it to find out. As Garthman said, there are guitars out there which will not work with nylon but, there are guitars that will. You can quote all the theory you want.
The comment about the tuner posts while accurate, is an example of never having tried it. They work fine. The ratio is different but they work. The diameter of the post is not an issue.

I would never do this conversion to a Martin/Taylor etc. high end guitar but then I would never buy a high end guitar that was not made for nylon strings.
I converted a Recording King ROS616 that was fantastic for the type of music I play...folk/pop/jazz and way, way louder than the Korean Breedlove nylon string guitar I had. I am sure it would suck next to a fine classical guitar. I just do not like the non-radiused fret board and bridge and the 2" or greater nut that is comon on classicals.
Thanks for your contribution, John. And of course you are quite right - it's obvious that these people who are quoting "theory" (and I use the "" because it's not even a theory, it's just something that some-one once said and every-one is just repeating it) have never tried it. If they had tried it they would know that it does work and can sound very good. I've been using my nylon string dreadnought for over 5 years now - mainly for traditional folk but also for acoustic versions of modern songs - and I've not once received an adverse comment about it - on the contrary it has invoked a lot of positive interest and favourable comment from both laymen and other guitarists.

And you are right about the tuners too - all I do is keep the strings (especially the 1st, 2nd and 4th) under quite tight tension when I'm tuning up. With practise it's easy to get one turn over and two or three turns under the end that comes through the peg - that's fine by me.

Come on people! Why be so negative (especially when it's so obvious to those that have that you've never tried it)? Haven't you listened to the vid I posted?

Bumblebees can fly, you know.
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  #19  
Old 06-17-2011, 12:12 PM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garthman View Post
Thanks for your contribution, John. And of course you are quite right - it's obvious that these people who are quoting "theory" (and I use the "" because it's not even a theory, it's just something that some-one once said and every-one is just repeating it) have never tried it.
If you are referring to me, perhaps among others, you are incorrect that I have never tried it. I gave two examples where I played steel-string acoustics strung with nylon strings.

Bob Taylor, more than once has stated that guitars have an optimum range of tension with which they work best and that that range is a function of soundboard area and bracing design. He has gone on to say that too little tension produces insufficient volume and too much tension, before the onset of damage, results in a reduced sustain due to the dampening of the soundboard that excessive tension imposes. Of course, that is just his opinion but I haven't heard any refutation of it from equally qualified sources. Anyway, the results of my experimentation with different string gauges supports what Bob Taylor stated.

Rather than refute the theory, you've tried to dismiss it claiming, unconvincingly, that it is not a theory. It would be more persuasive for you to show that the theory is false.

You and others may be satisfied with the results you obtained from stringing steel-string guitars with nylon strings but still others with different expectations and preferences will not be content with the outcome. Since switching to nylon strings on a guitar designed for steel strings involves no risk to the guitar, unlike the other way around, everyone is free to try the substitution and judge for themselves.
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  #20  
Old 06-17-2011, 12:55 PM
john bange john bange is offline
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Obviously, It's not for everyone and I don't mean to sound like it is. It just works for me...but only sometimes.
In answer to the original question, I doubt if the small bodied baby Taylor would be very good with nylon but it wouldn't stop me from trying it.
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  #21  
Old 06-17-2011, 01:00 PM
Garthman Garthman is offline
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Originally Posted by Herb Hunter View Post
If you are referring to me, perhaps among others, you are incorrect that I have never tried it. I gave two examples where I played steel-string acoustics strung with nylon strings.

Bob Taylor, more than once has stated that guitars have an optimum range of tension with which they work best and that that range is a function of soundboard area and bracing design. He has gone on to say that too little tension produces insufficient volume and too much tension, before the onset of damage, results in a reduced sustain due to the dampening of the soundboard that excessive tension imposes. Of course, that is just his opinion but I haven't heard any refutation of it from equally qualified sources. Anyway, the results of my experimentation with different string gauges supports what Bob Taylor stated.

Rather than refute the theory, you've tried to dismiss it claiming, unconvincingly, that it is not a theory. It would be more persuasive for you to show that the theory is false.

You and others may be satisfied with the results you obtained from stringing steel-string guitars with nylon strings but still others with different expectations and preferences will not be content with the outcome. Since switching to nylon strings on a guitar designed for steel strings involves no risk to the guitar, unlike the other way around, everyone is free to try the substitution and judge for themselves.
Now, now. I was just making a general statement that it seems that a lot of people just regurgitate stuff they've read without any actual direct experience of the topic. I don't really see much point in doing that.

I'd welcome your comments on the vids in post #16.
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  #22  
Old 06-17-2011, 01:24 PM
Garthman Garthman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Herb Hunter View Post
. . . Bob Taylor, more than once has stated that guitars have an optimum range of tension with which they work best and that that range is a function of soundboard area and bracing design. He has gone on to say that too little tension produces insufficient volume and too much tension, before the onset of damage, results in a reduced sustain due to the dampening of the soundboard that excessive tension imposes. . . .
I'm quite sure there is an optimum range of factors that produce the "best" sound in a guitar. But to have any real value - at least in the physical world - those factors need quantification. How much variation from the "optimum" causes what % drop in volume, tone, whatever . . .? What is the opinion of the listener? - one person may well prefer the different sound of the instrument to the "optimum" sound that the manufacturer has chosen, for example -after all it's all subjective, is it not?

Now if you've tried putting nylon strings on a steel string guitar and you didn't like the resulting sound - that's fine. But that does not mean that (a) you can't do it (as other posters have attested) or (b) that you might get a different sound - one that you may like - if you tried the experiment on another guitar.

PS. I prefer the sound of one of my all-laminate guitars to one of my all-solid ones. What does that prove?
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  #23  
Old 06-17-2011, 01:30 PM
Garthman Garthman is offline
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Originally Posted by john bange View Post
Obviously, It's not for everyone and I don't mean to sound like it is. It just works for me...but only sometimes.
In answer to the original question, I doubt if the small bodied baby Taylor would be very good with nylon but it wouldn't stop me from trying it.
I tried this on a Cort Mini Earth (1/2 size steel string) and actually preferred the sound of the nylon strings - mellowed out some of the "twang".
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  #24  
Old 06-18-2011, 10:16 PM
Taylor814 Taylor814 is offline
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It seems like there may be some confusion here as to what exactly was meant by the OP as "nylon strings". I took his question to mean strings commonly found on a classical guitar with nylon trebles of approximately 0.028, 0.032 and 0.043" diameters for the E, B and G strings, respectively. I still contend that strings of these diameters would be problematic on a steel string, particularly for the G string where it would be difficult to wind it more than a few turns on a steel string post. However, it appears that some of the later posters were referring to Thomastik JP Folk Strings, which have much narrower nylon-wound trebles of 0.016, 0.024 and 0.025". In this case the G string is equivalent in diameter to a light or medium gauge steel string, and the trebles are only slightly larger than their steel string equivalents. To my understanding these strings are intended for steel string guitar use anyway, so I'm not even sure what the argument is about.
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  #25  
Old 06-19-2011, 11:03 AM
Garthman Garthman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taylor814 View Post
It seems like there may be some confusion here as to what exactly was meant by the OP as "nylon strings". I took his question to mean strings commonly found on a classical guitar with nylon trebles of approximately 0.028, 0.032 and 0.043" diameters for the E, B and G strings, respectively. I still contend that strings of these diameters would be problematic on a steel string, particularly for the G string where it would be difficult to wind it more than a few turns on a steel string post. However, it appears that some of the later posters were referring to Thomastik JP Folk Strings, which have much narrower nylon-wound trebles of 0.016, 0.024 and 0.025". In this case the G string is equivalent in diameter to a light or medium gauge steel string, and the trebles are only slightly larger than their steel string equivalents. To my understanding these strings are intended for steel string guitar use anyway, so I'm not even sure what the argument is about.
I understood the OP to mean standard nylon strings (as used on a classical guitar) and I was referring to such strings when I replied that they would work OK on his guitar. I also mentioned that he may need to widen the treble string nut slots to accommodate the wider nylon trebles. I posted a vid of my "nylon string dreadnought" in Post #9. This guitar is a standard dreadnought guitar intended for steel strings which I have strung with classical guitar nylon strings (they are La Bella 850B-HT hard tension strings).

During subsequent discussions some-one postulated that nylon strings would not work on a steel string guitar because the stronger bracing was to withstand the higher tension of steel strings and therefore lower tension nylon strings would not drive the top to a sufficient degree. As a counter argument I posted the two vids in Post #16 to show that this was not so. I did not mention what strings I was using - I just invited comments (which were not forthcoming). The strings were in fact a set of T-I JP "Folk" in the 1st vid (as you correctly point out) and a set of Martin SP PB strings in the 2nd vid. The Martins exert approx double the tension of the JP strings - a demonstration that lower tension strings can still drive to top perfectly well.

Sorry for any confusion.
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  #26  
Old 06-19-2011, 11:58 AM
john bange john bange is offline
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as I have already said, I do not think this conversion is for everyone but It does work. for example, if you have a cheap guitar that is bellying or the neck is bending, you can get a little more life out of it.
The "tubby"(even on a classical) G string is not a problem on a steel string post. I will admit to using a wound G from GHS whenever I can because I prefer the tone. Either will work.
The only steel to nylon conversion I have right now is a 12 string and It was a pain to convert. I use GHS #2380 high tension strings for the clear nylon. I use Martin M160 for the silver wound. My treble strings are clear nylon E for the treble E, a clear G stretched to A and a clear B stretched to D. I use a clear G and a wound G. I am going thru this just to show how involved it is.
I did an old Harmony Monterey F hole with a set of GHS 2380's and a wound G from a Doyle Dokes set. For sure, it lost some volume but it has lasted for years and I get to hear it all the time...she plays it with a thin flatpick and it projects very well...didn't sound that good with steel anyway.
There are some mild intonation issues but we probley are not getting up the neck that far to have a problem on anything we play.
This isn't an argument, it's just something I suspect more than a few have done that works. I think Garthman's videos proves it
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  #27  
Old 02-23-2016, 08:12 PM
janepaints janepaints is offline
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Default yes, but tune it higher (and adjust the saddle slant)

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Originally Posted by givempills View Post
Just wondering? I'm guessing it would work? Right?
Yes, this is a very old post but it caught my attention.

Nylon on a Taylor baby could actually sound quite good but unless the saddle angle was changed the intonation would suffer.

BUT-in terms of tone, with that short cale, sure put nylons on it but tune it higher, with the E strings sounding as if capo'd at F#, G or A (and all strings tuned accordingly

i.e. it would then be a requinto guitar.

the baby (not the big baby) strung with steel imo sounds WAY better tuned higher--it is, essentially a terz guitar/requinto in body size & scale.

i wish taylor offered a nylon-string baby--it's a no-brainer--would be the best-bang-for-the-buck requinto on the market.

I have an all-solid birch 0-size 1960's harmony which i converted to nylon strings (i carved a classical-type bridge and mounted it)...it's scale is 24"...it sounds lackluster tuned to normal pitch but when tuned to F# or G it becomes a fun little instrument--absolutely not a bonafide 'classical guitar' but a great little guitar for folk/old-time/songwriting/sofa/travel
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  #28  
Old 02-24-2016, 11:22 AM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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Hi Jane, I've done just that with my old 60's vintage Silvertone western / folk guitar that came with steel strings. When I am learning a new complex fingersyle tune and doing tons of repetition, I've used ball-end hard tension nylon strings temporarily to minimize the wear and tear on my finger tip callouses. They sound OK, but that cheapo birch guitar is no Martin D-28 to begin with. I made a new nut for nylon strings, and convert it back and forth as needed. Others use silk & steel strings to get lowered tension.

Bob Taylor has answered the "nylon string Baby and nylon GS Mini" question several times in their quarterly magazine Wood & Steel. Short answer: it would basically be a whole bracing and top re-design, and is not likely to happen any time soon.
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  #29  
Old 02-24-2016, 08:49 PM
dosland dosland is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by givempills View Post
Just wondering? I'm guessing it would work? Right?
"It would work" but that really depends what you're trying to accomplish. What is your motive for this sort of a change?

In my experience (nearly four full decades of being an absurd cheapskate when it comes to my own money), this is a tack that will result in your guitar having nylon strings with the nylon string feel, but with a rather less compelling sound (especially in terms of projection, volume, and, perhaps less interestingly, tone). You certainly can put pretty much any strings on any instrument, assuming you're not too concerned about tuning up to pitch. I've run medium gauge acoustic strings on electrics, extra super light steel on a heavy acoustic-electric, nylons on pretty much everything I've ever owned, but in most cases the strings for which that particular instrument was designed turn out to be best (though I do have a soft spot for the super heavy strings on an electric guitar).

The reason I asked about motive, is because if you're going for a sort of classical-ish sound, this isn't going to do it. And the bottom end of the all solid classical guitar market is certainly not especially high. So if you find you like playing the nylon strung Baby, it won't be a horribly expensive jump to upgrade to something that both feels and sounds way better. If you do opt for a nylonification, you'll have to post again to let us know how it goes and whether it meets/exceeds/underwhelms your expectations, whatever those were. Good luck!
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  #30  
Old 02-24-2016, 11:23 PM
cobalt60 cobalt60 is offline
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Originally Posted by Garthman View Post
Thanks for your contribution, John. And of course you are quite right - it's obvious that these people who are quoting "theory" (and I use the "" because it's not even a theory, it's just something that some-one once said and every-one is just repeating it) have never tried it. If they had tried it they would know that it does work and can sound very good. I've been using my nylon string dreadnought for over 5 years now - mainly for traditional folk but also for acoustic versions of modern songs - and I've not once received an adverse comment about it - on the contrary it has invoked a lot of positive interest and favourable comment from both laymen and other guitarists.

And you are right about the tuners too - all I do is keep the strings (especially the 1st, 2nd and 4th) under quite tight tension when I'm tuning up. With practise it's easy to get one turn over and two or three turns under the end that comes through the peg - that's fine by me.

Come on people! Why be so negative (especially when it's so obvious to those that have that you've never tried it)? Haven't you listened to the vid I posted?

Bumblebees can fly, you know.


Who exactly are these people with theories you keep referring to? Why are you so bent on discrediting "these people?"


The sound of the guitars in the vids you posted is terrible based on qualities a classical guitarist looks for in a classical guitar, and also based on what a steel string guitarist looks for in a steel string guitar. So no, they don't sound good to me, on any level. That said, acoustic guitars are very frequently poorly mic'd and pushed through garbage pre, amp, and speakers, so the average listener isn't a good gauge. As you say, they might find this sound charming, so more power to your lifestyle.



EDIT: Haha that post was from 2011 wtf. I'm an a$$hole. Nice.
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