Something new to me...

[Ned Milburn]

Hi Friends,

Here's a new one to me...

I'm replacing tuners on a mandolin for a local pro musician. It turns out, unlike guitar tuners, that mandolin tuners come in styles with the worm on one side or the other of the cogged gear. (Sorry, my terminology is lacking...)

So, my question is WHY...??

Logic suggests that having the post on the nut side of the worm gear is best, since string tension will push the worm and cog gears together in engagement, rather than apart.

So, why do the reverse (anti-logical) tuners exist for the mandolin world when they don't exist for the guitar world...??

Thanks for any insight you can share.

[Truckjohn]

They do.. Just not much anymore. Prior to the 1930's they were pretty common.

[Frank Ford]

Originally Posted by Ned Milburn

So, my question is WHY...??

So, why do the reverse (anti-logical) tuners exist for the mandolin world when they don't exist for the guitar world...??

Thanks for any insight you can share.

They were "backward," if you will, on guitars too. I can't explain the change, but it happened around 1925.

Here' are a couple of examples from the 1920s - - -

MARTIN:



GIBSON:

[Ned Milburn]

Thanks Frank and Truckjohn. I am guessing that people started to realize the reverse (present standard) is a more ideal design choice.

Mandolin players of a very traditional persuasion still prefer reverse gear tuners. I have both, and oddly, I have no problem switching between the two and remembering which way to tune.

I've wondered if the move toward solid headstocks on guitars precipitated the change? On slotted headstocks where the strings posts are anchored on both ends, doubt there is enough movement to affect engagement one way or the other. On solid headstocks where the posts are not anchored on both ends, it may be quite different.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by Todd Yates

Mandolin players of a very traditional persuasion still prefer reverse gear tuners. I have both, and oddly, I have no problem switching between the two and remembering which way to tune.

I've wondered if the move toward solid headstocks on guitars precipitated the change? On slotted headstocks where the strings posts are anchored on both ends, doubt there is enough movement to affect engagement one way or the other. On solid headstocks where the posts are not anchored on both ends, it may be quite different.

Good point, Todd, about the slotted headstocks. But, even with slotted headstocks, depending upon margins or error and accuracy, it could well be such that "reverse" tuners develop more slop over time due to disengagement of the gears.

[murrmac123]

I am slightly confused here ... I had always thought that irrespective of which side of the tuner post the worm drive was located , manufacturers always ensured that the knobs were turned the same way in order to tune up or down.

In Frank's pic of the Martin above, in order to raise the pitch of the strings , the knobs are still turned anti-clockwise (viewing from behind the knob) ... this is the same orientation as on every other guitar I have ever seen be it slotted headstock or solid.

I am really surprised that Todd has an instrument where the orientation is reversed... but hey ... mandolins ...

Just to note that if the cog is behind the worm drive (as on Frank's pic above) the thread on the worm drive will (or should ) always be a RH thread in order to preserve the correct tuning orientation ...if the cog is in front of the worm drive (as in all modern tuners) , then the thread will (or should) always be a LH thread.

[LouieAtienza]

Don't know how well these parts were machined at the time, but maybe it was done that way to prevent binding with a worm and gear that maybe didn't mesh 100%?

[John Arnold]

I always assumed that reverse tuners were the norm because of tooling. With those, the worm gear is right-hand. Modern (non reverse) tuners have a left-hand worm.
In general, reverse tuners were phased out in the US around 1925. Most of the tuners Martin used before then were European made....those afterwards were US made.

Edit:
The phenomenon of turning the button the wrong way is a modern one. As explained above, original reverse tuners have the opposite spiral on the worm gear, so they turn the same direction as modern tuners.
But the desire to use tuners with the worm on the bottom on F-style mandolins was dictated by the graduated lengths of the button shafts. As a result, reverse tuner F-style mandolins have the string posts in a different location on the peghead. Some tuner manufacturers would sell 'reverse' mandolin tuners that did not have a right-hand worm gear (to save tooling costs). The result is a tuner that turns backwards. It is NOT the way things were before 1925.

[redir]

My 1920's SS Stewart had 'backwards' tuners to but they turned properly as John Mentioned. I always thought that it made more sense to have the gear on the nut side. That way the post wont constantly be applying force to the gear and the gear will simply be there to just twist up the post, let the grommets and the tuner plate do all the heavy lifting.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

I am slightly confused here ... I had always thought that irrespective of which side of the tuner post the worm drive was located , manufacturers always ensured that the knobs were turned the same way in order to tune up or down.

In Frank's pic of the Martin above, in order to raise the pitch of the strings , the knobs are still turned anti-clockwise (viewing from behind the knob) ... this is the same orientation as on every other guitar I have ever seen be it slotted headstock or solid.

I am really surprised that Todd has an instrument where the orientation is reversed... but hey ... mandolins ...

Just to note that if the cog is behind the worm drive (as on Frank's pic above) the thread on the worm drive will (or should ) always be a RH thread in order to preserve the correct tuning orientation ...if the cog is in front of the worm drive (as in all modern tuners) , then the thread will (or should) always be a LH thread.

It clearly states on LMII or Stew Mac's site that the "reverse" (ie: old school) tuners tune in a different direction.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by John Arnold

Edit:
The phenomenon of turning the button the wrong way is a modern one. As explained above, original reverse tuners have the opposite spiral on the worm gear, so they turn the same direction as modern tuners.
But the desire to use tuners with the worm on the bottom on F-style mandolins was dictated by the graduated lengths of the button shafts. As a result, reverse tuner F-style mandolins have the string posts in a different location on the peghead. Some tuner manufacturers would sell 'reverse' mandolin tuners that did not have a right-hand worm gear (to save tooling costs). The result is a tuner that turns backwards. It is NOT the way things were before 1925.

Thanks for this info, John.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by Ned Milburn

It clearly states on LMII or Stew Mac's site that the "reverse" (ie: old school) tuners tune in a different direction.

Just to clarify, Ned, since you quoted my post, are you endorsing something I said there, or are you taking issue with something in there ?

EDIT : Ned , here is a link to a page on Paul Hostetter's website which IMO is the definitive explanation of everything to do with mandolin tuners. ...

http://www.lutherie.net/mandolin.gear.direction.html

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by murrmac123

Just to clarify, Ned, since you quoted my post, are you endorsing something I said there, or are you taking issue with something in there ?

Not endorsing or taking issue... Just trying to add some clarification regarding the new old school tuners available. As per the title, this is something new to me. The info shared on this thread is interesting. It seems as if the new "old school" tuners are made by manufacturers who use the same direction worms, such that the tuners tune in reverse. I just added my response to your response for clarification.

PS - Thanks for the link you posted.

[Truckjohn]

99% chance the change came about due to steel strings increased tension and the effects on "cheap" tuners....

Good, expensive, well supported machined tuners with machined peg support inserts and carefully reamed holes in the wood probably won't have a problem either way...

Cheap stamped tuners probably won't have a problem with lower tension gut/nylon strings.... Assuming the holes in the wood are reasonably tight and properly reamed (not rough drilled)...

But mix cheap stamped tuners with high tension steel strings + cheap/no peg support bushings + rough drilled holes..... Problem... I doubt it's primarily due to "wear" - as tuners really don't move all that much... More likely due to the rough drilled tuner holes in the wood deforming due to the torque (and no/loose bushings) causing Mr. Wobbly Pants in the mechanism... And Ka-Zing... Your tuners self de-tune...

Thanks