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  #1  
Old 01-14-2018, 12:57 PM
vindibona1 vindibona1 is offline
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Default Can you modify ES1/ES2 systems?

One would think that when you bought a $3000+ guitar you'd get a premium electronic system that would rival the best of the best. But much like Sony and Apple, with Taylor you get what they give you and are often stuck with their accessories, even if there are better products out there. And while I know I can gut the electronics in my Taylor guitars, I was wondering if there isn't a way to modify/replace/add to the pickups without replacing all the electronics? I know the ES1 is more complicated because they have the pickup and wiring in the neck, connected to the body.

I think an internal mic would really help bring out the natural sound of the guitar. Baggs Anthem?

The one thing I like about the Taylor system is the inconspicuous way they have the three buttons on the top inside shoulder of the guitar. Easy and fast access without having to take a rectangular piece out of the side for the electronics. I suppose soundhole controls are just as inconspicuous.

So, assuming there is no modification available for the ES2 system and you can only replace it entirely, CAN YOU REMOVE THE ENTIRE ES2 SYSTEM IN A MANNER WHERE IT CAN BE REPLACED SHOULD YOU GO TO SELL THE GUITAR WITH ORIGINAL STUFF?

TIA
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  #2  
Old 01-14-2018, 01:28 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vindibona1 View Post
One would think that when you bought a $3000+ guitar you'd get a premium electronic system that would rival the best of the best. But much like Sony and Apple, with Taylor you get what they give you and are often stuck with their accessories, even if there are better products out there. And while I know I can gut the electronics in my Taylor guitars, I was wondering if there isn't a way to modify/replace/add to the pickups without replacing all the electronics? I know the ES1 is more complicated because they have the pickup and wiring in the neck, connected to the body.

I think an internal mic would really help bring out the natural sound of the guitar. Baggs Anthem?

The one thing I like about the Taylor system is the inconspicuous way they have the three buttons on the top inside shoulder of the guitar. Easy and fast access without having to take a rectangular piece out of the side for the electronics. I suppose soundhole controls are just as inconspicuous.

So, assuming there is no modification available for the ES2 system and you can only replace it entirely, CAN YOU REMOVE THE ENTIRE ES2 SYSTEM IN A MANNER WHERE IT CAN BE REPLACED SHOULD YOU GO TO SELL THE GUITAR WITH ORIGINAL STUFF?

TIA
Buy a ToneDexter to use with your ES2 system. It works well with the ES2. At $399 the ToneDexter is about the price of another replacement system that you just might end up using a ToneDexter with, anyway. You'll preserve the value of your nice Taylor 814ce DLX, and you'll have a really good preamp that'll work with just about all pickup systems except magnetic-based ones. How can I recommend the Tonedexter for use with Taylor ES2? I've used ToneDexter with my Taylor 618e ES2 and 322ce ES2 with nice results. I have a soundclip of the flatpicked Taylor 618ce ES/ToneDexter combo on AGF that's okay but I'm not completely happy with because I need to experiment with different mic placement.
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Last edited by SpruceTop; 01-14-2018 at 02:48 PM.
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  #3  
Old 01-14-2018, 02:15 PM
pieterh pieterh is offline
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I suppose technically the ES1 is a dual source system with a body sensor that is close to being a dynamic mic. The problem is the balance is fixed and not enough of the sensor cuts through to compensate for the (badly placed) neck pickup.

I actually like the ES2 on my 414 but would like a bit more mic character for some gigs and I think the ToneDexter may be the answer. It would be an expensive experiment if it went wrong though so I am holding off until they are more readily available in Nothern Europe and I can try one.
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Old 01-14-2018, 02:57 PM
Steely Glen Steely Glen is offline
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I think the TruPlug system can fill in the holes and then you can wire up another system of your choice but it won’t be interchangeable (or reversible)...at least not very easily.

Personally, I wouldn’t buy a Taylor with any version of ES1...no matter how good it was acoustically, unless my plan was literally never to plug in. To me, the ES1 is really that bad. They made huge improvements with ES2. Much more natural and usable tone, but I still don’t like all that “stuff” inside my guitar (and don’t like to depend on 9V batteries).

But I’d prefer to buy a Taylor with no “e” and add my own unintrusive system (I like a K&K Pure Mini) that is battery-free. If I need EQ, I’ll do it from a pedal or a rack fed by a power supply.
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Old 01-14-2018, 03:01 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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From May 2017, here are my initial sloppy efforts at using the ToneDexter with my Taylor 618e ES2 and my Martin HD-28 Trance Amulet M-VT. All recordings were made with my typical right-hand positioning of the flatpick over the rear of the soundhole.

Warning To Players: Don't Ever Demonstrate Your Pickup/Preamp Preferences And Recorded Tracks By Using A Flatpick In A Moderately Aggressive Or Harder Manner As I've Done In These Demos! Always Do Fingerpicking And Always Record Your Demo After It's Been Put Through EQ And Your Speaker System Being Miced Out A Distance In Front Of It! That Way Everyone Will Think Your Pickup/Preamp System Is The Best In The World Instead Of My Demos Of These DIRECT-TO-HARD DRIVE, ABSOLUTELY FLAT EQ, AND NO EFFECTS RECORDINGS! Whew, I'm glad I got that off my chest!

----

Hi Folks,

I just made a recording of a ToneDexter Wave Map that was generated by my 2015 Taylor 618e Expression System 2 and a Shure SM81 Small Condenser Microphone. The mic placement was about 12-inches out from the guitar's neck-body joint with the mic's capsule pointed toward my picking hand. All EQ was FLAT for both the WaveMap generation and the subsequent recording and NO EFFECTS were used. The recording was made with the ToneDexter's CHARACTER knob fully clockwise for the widest mic image. The recording was made at 48/24 Wave format.

The Taylor has fresh Elixir Nanoweb Medium-Guage Phosphor Bronze Strings installed and is played with a BlueChip TD35 Flatpick. At the end of the recording, I play a D-chord a couple of times to try to demonstrate the wah-wah effect of forearm positioning on the Taylor's top. The wah-wah effect is resident on all Taylor's, from the Mini to the Orchestra models, that have the relief rout which was introduced, I believe, around 2003. All brands of guitars have this effect somewhat but I've noticed newer Taylors have it especially strongly and I attribute it to the relief rout that really enlivens the top's vibrational range. All newer Taylors would benefit, IMHO, from installation of a stick-on armrest such as offered by John Pearse.

The recording is a conflated version of the guitar parts of Neil Young's "Old Man" and is designed to demonstrate the various tonal ranges as rendered by the Taylor ES2/Shure SM81 ToneDexter WaveMap. I'm positive that even better WaveMaps can be generated with more experimentation of mic placement when generating ToneDexter WaveMaps with our guitars! Please know that I have carpal-tunnel in both hands and it can result in any slight misfretting you may hear in the recording.



Below, is the Martin HD-28 with Trance Audio Amulet M Dual Mono and Shure SM81 ToneDexter recording I made a couple of weeks ago, which was made with the Shure SM-81 in the same position as the Taylor but with the Shure's capsule pointed directly at the neck/body joint. Relative differences in the volume of the Taylor and Martin recordings are because of the recording process and not because one guitar and pickup combination is inherently louder than the other.



----

From August 2017, Here's the Martin HD-28 Trance Amulet M-VT recorded into ToneDexter's SLOT 22, which removes the anti-feedback parameters for live-performance of the other ToneDexter slots, and should result in a more natural tone:

Hi Folks,

Here's another recording of "Crossing Muddy Waters" that I just made using the latest ToneDexter Version 1.20 update which includes NO LIVE-PERFORMANCE FEEDBACK-FIGHTING EQ on SLOT 22 for more natural guitar tone recording purposes. The recording was made with the Trance Amulet M-VT Tone Control on Full-Spectrum tone (Tone Wheel all the way to the treble-end of its travel), and with no additional EQ or Effects. The Shure SM81 small condenser mic was 10-inches out with the capsule pointed perpendicular to the Martin HD-28's 14th-fret neck/body joint. The flatpick is a Charmed Life .75 mm Brown (Vespel) and the strings are Martin MSP7200SW Medium-guage Phosphor Bronze.

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Martin HD-28 Sunburst/Trance M-VT Phantom
Martin D-18/UltraTonic
Adamas I 2087GT-8
Ovation Custom Legend LX
Guild F-212XL STD
Huss & Dalton TD-R
Taylor 717e
Taylor 618e
Taylor 614ce
Larrivee D-50M/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Blue Grass Special/HiFi
Larrivee D-40R Sunburst
Larrivee C-03R TE/Trance M-VT Phantom
RainSong BI-DR1000N2
Emerald X20
Yamaha FGX5
Republic Duolian/Schatten NR-2

Last edited by SpruceTop; 01-15-2018 at 11:11 AM.
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  #6  
Old 01-15-2018, 12:30 AM
vindibona1 vindibona1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
Buy a ToneDexter to use with your ES2 system. It works well with the ES2. At $399 the ToneDexter is about the price of another replacement system that you just might end up using a ToneDexter with, anyway. You'll preserve the value of your nice Taylor 814ce DLX, and you'll have a really good preamp that'll work with just about all pickup systems except magnetic-based ones.
Yeah... I think that may be the ticket ultimately. For now I've been using a Baggs GigPro preamp which seems to help when plugging into a house system that's controlled by another dude, but never pumps enough volume through the monitor, which really doesn't sound like the house system. But I'll start saving for the ToneDexter. Thanks.
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  #7  
Old 01-15-2018, 03:20 PM
martingitdave martingitdave is offline
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Default Can you modify ES1/ES2 systems?

Advice I am giving to myself and friends:

My favorite two factory systems are: Taylor's ES2 and Martin's/Fishman's F1 Aura Plus system. So far, I haven't heard any that I like better. There are plenty of aftermarket systems that people are fond of. But, I don't think they sound any better than those two. And, from an integration standpoint, the factory onboard systems have some space and placement advantages.

I've put too much mental energy into worrying about the upgrade path for future systems. All of these things will eventually fail and become obsolete. I went so far as to "simplify" everything buy selling the guitars with factory systems for guitars with K&Ks. Guess what? I liked the factory systems better. A lot better. And, when I need to plug in and perform for people, I want to sound my best.

Most everything in the piezo analog category (K&K and ES2 for example) can be improved with the Tondexter. In fact, if I were to continue with the K&K, I would need to invest in, and carry, a Tondexter. But some of us don't want to carry a Tonedexter around.

Instead, I am going to (yet again) find a Martin with the factory F1+ system. I just like using it better. In a few years when it's dead, I'll figure out what to do. Install a K&K and buy a Tondexter? Who knows?

So, until something demonstrably better comes along, who cares?
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Last edited by martingitdave; 01-15-2018 at 03:38 PM.
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