LR Baggs Anthem pre-amp and acoustic tone

[RobN]

I have an LR Baggs Anthem full system that was installed on a Martin D18. Obviously, the under saddle element affect the acoustic tone, but I found that the pre-amp installed to the inside of the top next to the sound hole had an even more dramatic effect. Plugged in, I am reasonably satisfied with the amplified tone. But unplugged, there is a pretty big difference in acoustic tone.

I was wondering if anyone has the same experience and, is so, has anyone tried mounting the pre-amp to a different location.

I'm pondering whether to install this on the guitar that replaced the Martin. Any ideas?

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by RobN

I have an LR Baggs Anthem full system that was installed on a Martin D18. Obviously, the under saddle element affect the acoustic tone, but I found that the pre-amp installed to the inside of the top next to the sound hole had an even more dramatic effect. Plugged in, I am reasonably satisfied with the amplified tone. But unplugged, there is a pretty big difference in acoustic tone.

I was wondering if anyone has the same experience and, is so, has anyone tried mounting the pre-amp to a different location.

I'm pondering whether to install this on the guitar that replaced the Martin. Any ideas?

Did you get the full Anthem with the large control/preamp or the Anthem SL. I know I have read that a lot of people went for the SL in order to avoid the large preamp. With that said, I am just wondering how you know that the preamp is the cause of the tonal loss? Did you install the Element first and test the guitar unplugged and then install the preamp to see the difference? I only ask because if you had the Anthem installed all at once and then noticed a change then I would most likely associate that with the Element ust.

[RobN]

Yes, it is the full Anthem with the large pre-amp. It is bulky and heavy. The D18 came with it installed. I first removed the pre-amp, which dramatically improved the the acoustic tone and sustain (under saddle element was still in place at the time, which I later also removed). I felt that the pre-amp impacted the acoustic tone much more than the under saddle element.

I have an Eastman E20D that I'm thinking of giving the Anthem another go. Was just wondering if anyone has experimented with mounting the pre-amp in a different location to minimize the dampening effect on the top.

[benderman57]

I had a Wildwood Custom Larrivee OM with the full size anthem system in it and really was not in love with the pickup system. In taking the preamp out I too noticed just how much more volume guitar had without that preamp. If you were gonna play plugged in most of the time I guess it wasn't a big deal but I really loved the guitar much more without that system in it. I also thought the preamp removal impacted what I was hearing much more than the element. I was surprised to say the least!

[Monsum]

I had the Anthem with side mounted preamp once installed in my HPL Martin. I decided for that version of Anthem because the Martin had originally a Fishman preamp.
After installation I was shocked how bad the Martin sounded acoustically and before that it had been a lovely guitar.
I even suspected my luthier (the one who installed the Anthem) to do something evil to my guitar as I couldn't believe that replacing an undersaddle pickup from one to another would make such tremendous difference. But it did.
Eventually I sold the guitar.

[El Conquistador]

I believe your perceptions are right on the money. It is the main reason that I opted out of that unit because I play my guitar unplugged 90% of the time. I also will NOT have a battery anywhere in my signal chain. Been there, done that with disastrous results.

I use K&K with an external preamp (RedEye) with zero affect on my unplugged tone. (the RedEye runs off the phantom power of my SA220).

Steve

[Petty1818]

I still feel that 90% of any tonal loss is coming from the Element UST but the pre-amp is rather large. I am just not sure why more of you did not go with the Anthem SL which has a tiny pre-amp? These concerns though have led me to move on from the Anthem as a possible pickup. I remember even over at the Larrivee or Martin forum, an employee of Lr Baggs commented on how a noticeable change in the unplugged tone will occur.

[RobN]

I like that the pre-amp allows you to customize the mix to optimize your sound, but wish there was a way to mount a different way. If the wires were long enough, I would even consider attaching to my strap when needed.

If anyone has mounted the pre-amp in a different location with better results, I'd be interested in hearing about it. If not, will take a look at some of the options you guys recommended.

[benderman57]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I still feel that 90% of any tonal loss is coming from the Element UST but the pre-amp is rather large. I am just not sure why more of you did not go with the Anthem SL which has a tiny pre-amp? These concerns though have led me to move on from the Anthem as a possible pickup. I remember even over at the Larrivee or Martin forum, an employee of Lr Baggs commented on how a noticeable change in the unplugged tone will occur.

The Larrivee I bought came with the full anthem so SL was not really a choice at the time. If I was adding to a guitar the SL would be the one I'd go with if in fact you wanted the anthem system.

After hearing such great things about the Anthem I thought I would like it moving from a typical Fishman UST system and while I did think the Anthem was a more natural tone is was very lacking in output and very Hi-Fi sounding. It needed in my set-up a ton of Eq-ing and in the end I thought it was kinda lifeless sounding. In other words if it was more natural then I'll stick with un-natural I guess.

Now I have just purchased a Used McILroy that has K&K mini's installed and since I bought an outboard preamp I can say I see what all the hype is about. A much better electrified tone and the guitar is not impacted (that I can hear) by the 3 mini transducers.

Still when I gig I find myself really preferring my High End Takamine's with Cool Tube & adding the Mag Triax with it. The guitars are nothing special unplugged but plugged in a great tone and all the control right at your finger tips.

[simondylan]

Originally Posted by RobN

I have an LR Baggs Anthem full system that was installed on a Martin D18. Obviously, the under saddle element affect the acoustic tone, but I found that the pre-amp installed to the inside of the top next to the sound hole had an even more dramatic effect. Plugged in, I am reasonably satisfied with the amplified tone. But unplugged, there is a pretty big difference in acoustic tone.

I was wondering if anyone has the same experience and, is so, has anyone tried mounting the pre-amp to a different location.

I'm pondering whether to install this on the guitar that replaced the Martin. Any ideas?

My 2 cents. I have been an installer for many years, plus I'm a pretty good player as well. I've used just about every pickup under the sun at one time or another from a Barcus Berry insider to a Matrix/Aura combo, to a Taylor ES, and everything in between. I've ended up on the Baggs Anthem SL! I used the big Anthem, I had no problem with any effect it had on tone, which in reality was hardly even noticeable, I just like the SL better and didn't need the extra features. I realized that when I play, my own arm resting on the top has 100 times more effect on tone than anything else! So I made my peace with any effect a pickup system has on a guitar acoustically (with a couple of exceptions) if it produces a good usable plugged-in sound because that is the world I exist in as a player. To think that any alteration on a guitar i.e. a pickup, a new saddle or nut, a battery, different strings, etc, isn't going to have some effect acoustically is unrealistic. However just because you can hear some change or in some cases perceive a change doesn't mean that it then isn't usable! That's my perspective anyway.

[jseth]

I have the Anthem SL installed in both of my Mark Angus guitars; a 6 and 12 string. I specifically bought the SL after spending a good deal of time on the phone with one of Baggs techs... for my needs, I felt it was the best way to go, not to mention my hesitance to have that big "piece of pie" preamp on the soundboard!

I DID experience both tone and volume differences, primarily in my 6 string... I had played that guitar for over 30 years BEFORE having the Anthem installed and I am VERY familiar with all the aspects of it's sound.

A couple things; one, after about 6 months, it seemed to "come back to life". I'm guessing that was a function of the "squishy" Element unit settling in, but I have no absolute proof of that. Secondly, after having the Anthem in my 6 string for a few years, I finally had to have the neck geometry in the guitar dealt with by it's maker... the saddle height when the Anthem was installed was very low; still functional, but very low. After the neck work, the saddle is nice and high... and, VOILA! The volume came back... now, I'm leaning more towards the low saddle being a big part of the issue, as well as contributing to the tone of the guitar - which has now changed a bit. The tone is more "pointed" now... fortunately, still pleasing to me, so all is well!

When I was getting a pickup for my (then new) Goodall, I opted for the K&K PW, specifically because I did NOT want any battery or other stuff inside that guitar or under the saddle! I'm happy enough with the K&K when paired with the K&K PURE XLR preamp, but I would add an SM 57 to the mix when I use it live, just to supple aspects of the guitar that aren't captured by a soundboard transducer...

Similar to simondylan, I have played acoustic guitar for a LONG time, and have used pretty much every pickup invented, as it came along! Believe me, we are all MUCH better off nowadays than back in the "dark ages" of the 60's, when your choices were an external microphone or a DeArmond soundhole pickup (which sounds pretty much like a hollowbody electric tone)!

I also feel that the Anthem SL is the best I have heard for a "plug in and play" pickup system for the acoustic guitar. Doubtless, a K&K coupled with an internal condenser microphone through a Pendulum SPS-1 "might" sound better, but for the working stiff, the Anthem is fairly cost-effective and sounds very nice when it's dialed in...

I think the decision about a pickup really hinges upon "how much" the guitar will be plugged-in... if the answer to that question is "rarely", then I would not go with the Anthem, probably choosing either a Duncan Mag-Mic or a K&K for the times I needed to amplify the guitar.

[stevecuss]

I have a Mcilroy Jumbo acoustic and I installed a full anthem system in it about a month after I purchased it. I thought I'd noticed acoustic tonal loss as others have mentioned - it felt like the whole guitar was "dampened" a bit. Interestingly, I never attributed that to the preamp.

This year I sold the full Anthem and put the anthem SL in its place. The old preamp never sat happily in the Mcilroy's bracing pattern. I never used the extra features on the full and I prefer the minimalistic SL look.

I considered a Lyric and a K&K instead, but opted to stay with the Anthem. Ideally, I'd rather not have an under saddle pickup, but I find the Anthem to be the most versatile plug and play solution for my needs. If I weren't in an occasional loud rock band, I'd likely try a K&K.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by jseth

A couple things; one, after about 6 months, it seemed to "come back to life". I'm guessing that was a function of the "squishy" Element unit settling in, but I have no absolute proof of that. Secondly, after having the Anthem in my 6 string for a few years, I finally had to have the neck geometry in the guitar dealt with by it's maker... the saddle height when the Anthem was installed was very low; still functional, but very low. After the neck work, the saddle is nice and high... and, VOILA! The volume came back... now, I'm leaning more towards the low saddle being a big part of the issue, as well as contributing to the tone of the guitar - which has now changed a bit. The tone is more "pointed" now... fortunately, still pleasing to me, so all is well!

I have often mentioned in Anthem threads that the saddle height change could be the tonal change that people are hearing. I once brought my Taylor in for a set up and the terrible luthier put a shim in the neck without asking me, which brought the action up quite a bit. When I got my guitar back and played it, I was shocked at how the volume, bass and projection had significantly dropped off. Once I fixed the issue, the guitar came back to life. I am not ruling out the Element as the cause of some tonal degradation since even the Baggs techs say it will have a negative impact, but I do think that the saddle height contributes a bit.

[jseth]

Petty1818;

One thing to be mindful of is the fact that Brian, the tech at Baggs, impressed upon me:

The Anthem DOES NOT PLAY WELL with a shim of any kind... when I first got my Angus 6 string back from having the SL installed, the amplified sound was horrid, nothing at all like the same pickup in my 12 string...

After discovering that a shim is big "no no" with the Anthem (Element, particularly), I called Mark Angus and asked him what he did with the installation... my guitars had Fishman USTs in them prior to them Anthem, and apparently, the Element is thinner than the Fishman Acoustic Matrix Natural UST... so he did, indeed, shim the 6 string.

When I had a new saddle cut and installed, the pickup sounded very good... sometimes, it's the ;little things that make a huge difference!

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by jseth

Petty1818;

One thing to be mindful of is the fact that Brian, the tech at Baggs, impressed upon me:

The Anthem DOES NOT PLAY WELL with a shim of any kind... when I first got my Angus 6 string back from having the SL installed, the amplified sound was horrid, nothing at all like the same pickup in my 12 string...

After discovering that a shim is big "no no" with the Anthem (Element, particularly), I called Mark Angus and asked him what he did with the installation... my guitars had Fishman USTs in them prior to them Anthem, and apparently, the Element is thinner than the Fishman Acoustic Matrix Natural UST... so he did, indeed, shim the 6 string.

When I had a new saddle cut and installed, the pickup sounded very good... sometimes, it's the ;little things that make a huge difference!

Are you referring to a shim in the saddle or a shim in the neck? The luthier I went to removed the neck from my Taylor and put a shim in there, which changed the tone of the guitar. I probably should have been more clear! I was just trying to show that with a slight change in action, the guitar can sound quite a bit different than before, which could be why some people are noticing a drastic change one the Anthem is installed.