Tops for fingerstyle... Lutz, Sitka....... Cedar?

[rokdog49]

Taking into consideration the relatively consistent bracing Larrivee uses,
I can certainly hear the difference in his guitars with different tonewoods.

[DukeX]

I seem to like cedar/rosewood guitars for fingerstyle for all of the reasons that are commonly stated. I have two of them (Webber OM and Larrivee L-30).

I did not consider the wood combo when I bought them. I just fell in love with the tone.

[leew3]

Originally Posted by ChalkLitIScream

I'd really love an in depth explanation of the physical properties that allow each type of top to have its own characteristic.
Example how does dampening contribute? Density?

So far, here's what I've gathered
Cedar-Redwood-Engleman-Euro-Sitka--Lutz-Adi
<--more suited for fingerstyle/more suited for flatpicking -->
<--More responsive/More headroom-->

Well summarized. I would add that construction can change this conclusion. For example, my OM-28 12 fret with an Adi top is equally suited for finger style as well as flatpicking. Of course it doesn't have the depth of a dred but will go toe to toe for volume and beats them for punch.

[Alan Carruth]

Generally speaking a light weight top will tend to favor 'responsiveness', while a heavier one will have more 'headroom'. If you're using a softwood for the top picking a piece with lower density will usually result in a lighter top. On average by species, my own measurements have WRC holding down the low end of the density range, followed by Engelmann spruce, European, Red, and Sitka, although there's not much difference in the average of the last two. However, I have WRC tops that match Red spruce ones, near both ends of the range, and some of the densest spruce tops I've tested have been Engelmann. The densest brace wood I've seen yet was some very old Euro.

In general, if you're talking about the usual suspects, hardwoods have about the same Young's modulus along the grain as softwoods, at something like twice the density. Hardwoods vary even more than softwoods as a class; keep in mind that balsa is technically a hardwood. Still, if you're talking about mahogany, walnut, koa, maple and so on for tops, they'll usually need to be heavier than a softwood top, and will produce less power, less treble, and have more 'headroom', all else equal.

[BluesKing777]

Here is a demo video of 2 Maton 808s....one is the Sitka over Queensland Maple 808TE model (an Australian wood not really a Maple) and the other is the Cedar over Australian Blackwood SRS808.

Now the demo is from Fly Music in Chinese but if you don't speak Chinese, ignore, or imagine, the same old sales pitch! But the playing examples of each guitar is excellent.

See what you think, but I bought the one on the right!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZs_WuQViOM



BluesKing777.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by TBman

Really what's up with tops? I've been playing Sitka spruce tops forever. What am I missing from Lutz, other spruces and Cedar?

I've played excellent to spectacular fingerstyle-friendly guitars with all sorts of different spruce, cedar, redwood and hardwood top woods, as well as all sorts of different back and side woods, as well as many different body shapes and from many many different builders. That being said, there have been plenty of acoustic guitars (again with variety of woods, etc.) that I didn't care much for at all.

As long as I'm enjoying the guitar I am playing, I'm content.

[DupleMeter]

I play fingerstyle with a very light touch & I consistently prefer Sitka. Of course that's me. My wife is mostly a classical player (see was a classical guitar minor in college) & prefers Engelmann by a wide margin on her steel stringed guitars...which is why she has commandeered my '98 912c as "hers". And that's okay, my main guitar is my '95 812ce. I play it 99.999% of the time. And when I play a different guitar I just miss it. I tried to like the 912c because it's "better" then the 812c...at least on paper. But it just doesn't give me what I get from my 812c, and I'm sure it's because the Engelmann makes it a much "wetter" guitar. The overtones are beautiful (and addictive), but after a while I feel like I want more authority...more punch.

I think a lot of it is finding what works best for you & your style.

And don't get me started on the other dozen or so guitars we have in the house...I'd sell some of them but my wife won't let me.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

I play fingerstyle with a very light touch & I consistently prefer Sitka. Of course that's me. My wife is mostly a classical player (see was a classical guitar minor in college) & prefers Engelmann by a wide margin on her steel stringed guitars...which is why she has commandeered my '98 912c as "hers". And that's okay, my main guitar is my '95 812ce. I play it 99.999% of the time. And when I play a different guitar I just miss it. I tried to like the 912c because it's "better" then the 812c...at least on paper. But it just doesn't give me what I get from my 812c, and I'm sure it's because the Engelmann makes it a much "wetter" guitar. The overtones are beautiful (and addictive), but after a while I feel like I want more authority...more punch.

I think a lot of it is finding what works best for you & your style.

And don't get me started on the other dozen or so guitars we have in the house...I'd sell some of them but my wife won't let me.

I played a 414ce R just last weekend and liked it more than my Larrivee. The OM-05 is a great guitar, just missing the little more sparkle and depth I want. The store I was at (Sam Ash) was low on Taylors and I think around Christmas they will probably be stocked up again. Hopefully they'll have a 500 series with cedar I can test drive. Maybe cedar won't make a difference to my ears as I really liked the spruce over rosewood of the 414.

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by TBman

I played a 414ce R just last weekend and liked it more than my Larrivee. The OM-05 is a great guitar, just missing the little more sparkle and depth I want. The store I was at (Sam Ash) was low on Taylors and I think around Christmas they will probably be stocked up again. Hopefully they'll have a 500 series with cedar I can test drive. Maybe cedar won't make a difference to my ears as I really liked the spruce over rosewood of the 414.

The 400 series Taylors are very impressive. Back in '96 they did a limited run of Rosewood 400s and I picked up a 422-R. They do it more commonly now, back then it was a big deal because the 400s were only sapele up to that point. It's a great little guitar...especially for acoustic blues. It tends to be "throatier" than my other x12s. More of Martin OM sound than traditional Taylor tone.

I have an old ('96) 510c that I really like for alternate tunings. It's the one Engelmann top that I really like. i think it helps balance the dryness of the Mahogany nicely. I had it custom built for recording (so no electronics) with a 1-3/4" nut & cutaway. Back then both options were paid upgrades. The guy that was sourcing the parts/woods at Taylor was a friend of a friend (they played in a band together before he moved out to the left coast), so I got PS grade Engelmann on my little 500 as a surprise.

[gitarro]

I have owned fingerstyld guitars of very different tonal profiles that wer made of adi, euro, swiss, italian, englemann, lutz, and sitka spruce as well as redwood and cedar. In the end it is the builder who makes the biggest difference.

[musicman1951]

I think it depends on the rest of the guitar and your playing style. Some are more responsive to gentle playing, but lack headroom. Some add "warmth," which may or may not be a welcome addition depending on the sides and back (and your ears - no doubt).

I can't say I've ever played a top that refused to cooperate with finger style playing. I like the sound of redwood over an African Blackwood body - but that doesn't necessarily mean I'd like redwood tops on all my guitars.

[redir]

This conversation is all about averages as Alan stated in a manor of words. If you build two identical guitars from the same tree they will sound different, I know because I did it. So what does that suggest? That the top wood has nothing to do with the tone? Well not really, but kind of. A company like Martin and Taylor do build the same guitar over and over again, maybe not from the same tree but still, close enough. So that's when you start to see the differences on average of the various top woods.

In a small shop the guitar maker can select specific tops for specific purposes. Many of them will purchase tops and grade them and filter them into different categories, this one will make an excellent classical guitar, and this one will be a favorite for a light finger stylist and so on, regardless of the species.

Even at the 'boutique' level the choice of top species matters but to much a lesser degree then what most think.

But for widget guitars it tends to matter more, it's kind of ironic really.

[Alan Carruth]

redir wrote:
"But for widget guitars it tends to matter more, it's kind of ironic really. "

Again, in the production setting, where they built to the average properties of the top species (if they're careful), the tone of the guitars will reflect the variation in properties from that average, and the 'average' guitar in that run will reflect the 'average' tone of that species.

A hand maker, picking the tops that have the properties they want to produce a given sound without regard to the species, will tend to produce a similar sound with tops of different woods that share the same properties.

So; if you're looking for a given sound, and you're checking out factory instruments, look at the ones that have the top wood that produces that sound. If you're getting a hand made, find the maker who tends to get closest to that sound, tell them what you want, and let them pick the wood.

[Greg Ballantyne]

Originally Posted by TBman

I played a 414ce R just last weekend and liked it more than my Larrivee. The OM-05 is a great guitar, just missing the little more sparkle and depth I want. The store I was at (Sam Ash) was low on Taylors and I think around Christmas they will probably be stocked up again. Hopefully they'll have a 500 series with cedar I can test drive. Maybe cedar won't make a difference to my ears as I really liked the spruce over rosewood of the 414.

I've been playing a 414ce-r (and a 714ce, Lutz top) at the shop in town on & off for almost a year (they're both still there) but they both sound a lot like my 514ce-LTD (cedar/granadillo) but not quite as good. That cedar topped 514 is my favorite flatpicker, but I still hold out hope there might be a guitar in the world that is a little better.....but I'm not sure today that Taylor makes it.....I'm still lookin.....

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Greg Ballantyne

I've been playing a 414ce-r (and a 714ce, Lutz top) at the shop in town on & off for almost a year (they're both still there) but they both sound a lot like my 514ce-LTD (cedar/granadillo) but not quite as good. That cedar topped 514 is my favorite flatpicker, but I still hold out hope there might be a guitar in the world that is a little better.....but I'm not sure today that Taylor makes it.....I'm still lookin.....

I'm wondering if the Stonebridge G23CR-C is a step up.