13's on 12 string

[guitar344]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

After I suggested that the OP tune his guitar down two whole steps if he uses a 12 string set based on a medium .013 to .056 set, Dan wrote:



I'm not sure I follow you, Dan. Tuning the guitar down a step or two to prevent damage when using such a heavy string set for that instrument would be a sensible precaution.

There are lots of people on this forum that freak out whenever the idea of using a medium gauge set on an OM gets discussed. My decades of experience doing precisely that - putting mediums on Triple O's and OM's - has shown me that the idea that an OM MUST be strung with lights or extra lights is a fallacy.

However, putting the same gauge of strings on a 12 string and putting the commensurate gauge of octave strings to go with it AND tuning the guitar to standard pitch is just dangerously reckless. I doubt there's a 12 string made that can withstand that, not when tuned up to E.

The OP still hasn't answered my question asking whether he intends to put a 6 string .013 to .056 set on there, and play it as a 6 string. If that's his intention, then no problem. Strung as a 6 string, a medium gauge set would be just fine.

But doubling that string set would endanger the guitar. It can be used when the guitar is tuned lower, but tuning it up to E would be asking for trouble.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

I want to see what the guitar would sound like with 13-56 tuned to E. It probably sound louder.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by guitar344

I want to see what the guitar would sound like with 13-56 tuned to E. It probably sound louder.

Yes, for the period of time that the guitar remained playable before the neck pulled up and the bridge bellied upwards, the guitar might be louder.

Maybe. Sometimes, though, excessive tension has a surprising effect. I've played some guitars that were louder with light gauge strings than with mediums. Mediums made those particular guitars "choke up," and weren't the best choice because of it. This can occur even when there's no danger to the instrument from heavier strings, if the guitar has been voiced so that it's optimal with lights.

But from a structural standpoint, putting those strings on a 12 string is almost certainly a bad idea. It might work for two or three months without becoming unplayable, but eventually the added tension would catch up with it.

But it's your guitar, and if you want to ruin it with excessive tension, that's your choice. Do what you like.


Wade Hampton Miller

[Brucebubs]

What guitar is it?
Can the nut handle larger guage strings? Have the grooves been cut wide enough? Is this just an experiment or do you seriously want a 12-string with heavy guage strings? Are you looking for more volume or more bass/bottom end? Have you ever seen a Taylor Leo Kottke Signature 12-string? It is designed and built to take heavier guage strings. Her`s one for sale in the AGF classifieds;
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=350579

[flaggerphil]

Originally Posted by PTC Bernie

I say go ahead and let him try it . My opinion is that after an hour or so of playing 13's his fingers will be so sore that he'll probably be looking to put on a set of Ernie Ball Slinky's!

I don't know that he's asking because he wants to PLAY those strings.

BTW, the strings on my 12 are tuned down a whole step. My guitar and I are both happier.

[brianmay]

I suspect the bruise on the back of his hand (where the bridge hit it) will heal quite quickly . . .

Mediums at pitch on a 12 string . . . reckon that'd be the ultimate rip-off

[Brucebubs]

Originally Posted by brianmay

I suspect the bruise on the back of his hand (where the bridge hit it) will heal quite quickly . . .

Mediums at pitch on a 12 string . . . reckon that'd be the ultimate rip-off

You are right, mabe the OP should wear something protective like a welders mask/helmet when he tunes that baby up. If the bridge doesn`t get him then the headstock will.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by Brucebubs

What guitar is it?
Can the nut handle larger guage strings? Have the grooves been cut wide enough? Is this just an experiment or do you seriously want a 12-string with heavy guage strings? Are you looking for more volume or more bass/bottom end? Have you ever seen a Taylor Leo Kottke Signature 12-string? It is designed and built to take heavier guage strings. Her`s one for sale in the AGF classifieds;
http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=350579

Yes, that guitar is designed for those gauges, but only if tuned down to C#. Tuning it up to an E with those strings would not be a good idea.


whm

[zombywoof]

I string my 12 string with 13s but tune down to C#.

[guitar344]

If I remember correctly a set of 13's have over 400 pounds of tension in standard tuning, compared to 250 with standard light 10's. Maybe I will try 12-53. At least 12's would' miss the guitar up as fast. Will 12's be fine?

[12 string]

I'd still tune that set down a whole tone, to D. Here's more:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=108278

' Strang

[DanPanther]

Originally Posted by Wade Hampton

After I suggested that the OP tune his guitar down two whole steps if he uses a 12 string set based on a medium .013 to .056 set, Dan wrote:



I'm not sure I follow you, Dan. Tuning the guitar down a step or two to prevent damage when using such a heavy string set for that instrument would be a sensible precaution.

There are lots of people on this forum that freak out whenever the idea of using a medium gauge set on an OM gets discussed. My decades of experience doing precisely that - putting mediums on Triple O's and OM's - has shown me that the idea that an OM MUST be strung with lights or extra lights is a fallacy.

However, putting the same gauge of strings on a 12 string and putting the commensurate gauge of octave strings to go with it AND tuning the guitar to standard pitch is just dangerously reckless. I doubt there's a 12 string made that can withstand that, not when tuned up to E.

The OP still hasn't answered my question asking whether he intends to put a 6 string .013 to .056 set on there, and play it as a 6 string. If that's his intention, then no problem. Strung as a 6 string, a medium gauge set would be just fine.

But doubling that string set would endanger the guitar. It can be used when the guitar is tuned lower, but tuning it up to E would be asking for trouble.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

It would seem to me, that relaxing the strings to a alternate tuning, would defeat the purpose of the heavier strings if he were looking for a certain sound at regular tuning.
What would be the advantage of heavier strings if tuned below their specifications ?
It would be like putting high speed tires on your car and driving normal. WHY ?
At least the tires would last longer.

Dan

[MBE]

I use that very gauge on my LKSM-12...tuned down to C as many have wisely advised the OP.

[Wade Hampton]

Originally Posted by DanPanther

It would seem to me, that relaxing the strings to a alternate tuning, would defeat the purpose of the heavier strings if he were looking for a certain sound at regular tuning.
What would be the advantage of heavier strings if tuned below their specifications ?
It would be like putting high speed tires on your car and driving normal. WHY ?
At least the tires would last longer.

Dan, are you catching the fact that putting heavier strings on a 12 string guitar and tuning it up to an E is a destructive thing to do? By putting that much tension on the guitar you can ruin the neck, pull off the bridge, and belly the top a whole lot faster than you might imagine.

There are physical limitations to what these instruments can withstand.

Seriously, why is that so difficult for some of you to comprehend? Are you just locked into the ideas that "guitars are supposed to be tuned to E," and "12 string guitars are guitars so they should be tuned to E," and "wouldn't it be cool to use .13 to .056 strings on a 12 string and tune it to E - bet it'd be LOUD...."

Is anything that those of us with some more experience with 12 strings have been saying in this thread sunk in at all?!?

It's a bad idea. Trust me. It's a really, really, REALLY bad idea.

Obviously, some of you really, really, REALLY don't want to hear that.


whm

[wcap]

Though 13's seem like they would really be pushing things, some 12 string guitars are indeed designed to handle mediums. My Goodall 12 string says mediums are fine for example (recommended string gauges are noted inside these guitars). But the mediums I've used have not been 13's. An Elixr 12 string medium set is actually a 0.012 - 0.053 set (the same string gauges as a 6 string light set).

I recently switched from Elixr lights (which would be ultra lights if a 6 string set) to Elixr mediums on my Goodall 12 string. I'm mostly playing in DADGAD in standard pitches (not tuned down, though DADGAD does reduce the overall string tension on the instrument), but my very experienced tech assured me that there should be no problem in standard tuning with these strings (again, not all 12 string guitars are built for this) - I have not checked with James Goodall on this though, and I think I'd want to do that before routinely tuning mediums to standard tuning in standard pitch (what Wade has been saying makes a lot of sense).

Anyway, the result of the heavier gauge, on this guitar, was more volume for the lower notes (I like this result), but a tighter sound for the trebles (I don't like this). The high strings have lost some of their prior sweetness of tone.

On this guitar, the playing feel is not that much different with the mediums, except for when I'm playing high notes way up the neck - I feel I've lost some of my nimble dexterity up the neck with the mediums, making subtle fingerstyle playing up the neck noticeably more difficult to achieve.

I haven't totally decided what I want to do regarding this, but I'm considering switching back to the Elixr lights.

[wcap]

Note:

Though i almost always play my 12 string in DADGAD, when I have had it in standard tuning (back when I was using light gauge strings), it turned out I liked the sound of the guitar much better if tuned down a whole step and capoed up two frets than if the guitar was not tuned down and played without a capo.

I don't know why this is, but it I thought it was a MUCH nicer sound with the lower string tension.