Hide Glue?

[David-NJ]

Originally Posted by drplayer

Actually, I think the key word was "hard gasket", assuming all premiere builders apply a thin glue joint. I think it's also fact that HHG sets harder than the modern glues, which would imply that a thin HHG application would transfer energy/sound better? Who's to say what impact that has on overall tone--it's impossible to quantify, so you either believe it or you don't. But there are enough high-end builders offering it who believe it has merit to make me think (along with the science) that it does contribute to the overall tone of the instrument...however slight that may be.

I guess my thinking is, if you're going to have a $5-7-10-20K guitar built and there is no known detrimental affect to HHG, why wouldn't you spring for the couple hundred dollar upcharge for HHG if the builder offers it? To me It's akin to buying a 500-series Mercedes and telling the salesperson you really don't want to spring for the Bluetooth option...

Actually, that's not the right analogy because Bluetooth is widely known to work. It's much more akin to making the Mercedes dealer -- before you'll accept the car -- to change out the stock spark plug wires for ones that are made of solid gold, so as to more efficiently pass the current, even though the designers were 100% sure the ones they spec'd are more than up to the task.

[drplayer]

Originally Posted by David-NJ

Actually, that's not the right analogy because Bluetooth is widely known to work. It's much more akin to making the Mercedes dealer -- before you'll accept the car -- change out the stock spark plug wires for ones that are made of solid gold, so as to more efficiently pass the current, even though the designers were 100% sure the ones they spec'd are more than up to the task.

Okay, I like your analogy better! So do you just want "up for the task", or do you want the improved performance of "more efficiently passing current". I'll take the later given the choice and relative insignificant % of additional cost...

[FrankS]

No I am not making this up. I am not a guitar builder. I do science. Waves do not like transition points where the velocity of the wave changes. The more gradual the change the better. Abrupt is not good. Small differences can have profound effects in some systems. In guitars, not such a large effect but the science behind hide being in the right direction for sound is there. The magnitude is small though as previously stated.

Here is a old but really good and elementary video about this phenomenon. It is made for a non scientist so it should be understandable by all here. FYI, I read his book when I was 12 so that should be an indication of how easy hiss stuff is to follow. Great video to watch all of the way through but if you want to get to interfaces just ahead to around the 16 minute mark or even the 19 minute mark.

http://youtu.be/DovunOxlY1k

Frank Sanns

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

…Nearly all of the top end builders I know choose HHG as the best glue available, that is not very subtle.

HI Bruce...

In the past decade I've talked to a lot of luthiers and they all use hide glue (fish glue etc) and as with you not for every task in building an instrument.

But most don't even mention it unless clients/potential clients bring it up. Of course this may change as people begin asking questions.

It kind of reminds me of the commercials from the 1960s selling Shell gasoline with Platformate. They had 'contests' to see if a car would travel further with gasoline with or without platformate.

In college I worked for a refinery and discovered that all gasoline is made with Platformate. They had to make special gas to have the contests for the commercials.

[FrankS]

I should also mention that this wave behavior of not liking to go from one type of material through another is also evident in light waves. It is the primary way that anti refection coatings work. The coating is an interface between the air and the glass. The choice of that material and the gradual transition is what makes the coating reduce the reflections. (the coatings are intermediate refractive index between air and glass for that desire a more technical description.)

Frank Sanns

[David-NJ]

Originally Posted by FrankS

No I am not making this up. I am not a guitar builder. I do science. Waves do not like transition points where the velocity of the wave changes. The more gradual the change the better. Abrupt is not good. Small differences can have profound effects in some systems. In guitars, not such a large effect but the science behind hide being in the right direction for sound is there. The magnitude is small though as previously stated.

Here is a old but really good and elementary video about this phenomenon. It is made for a non scientist so it should be understandable by all here. FYI, I read his book when I was 12 so that should be an indication of how easy hiss stuff is to follow. Great video to watch all of the way through but if you want to get to interfaces just ahead to around the 16 minute mark or even the 19 minute mark.

http://youtu.be/DovunOxlY1k

Frank Sanns

You keep using emotive things such as sound waves do not "like" transition points. Or, on your website, making wood "forget that it was ever a tree". These things are as inanimate as inanimate gets.

I am curious, if you choose to share the data with us: how many guitarists have paid your $500 fee to have their guitars "acoustically optimized via energy stimulation", as contemplated on your website? I once paid Bryan Kimsey about that to hop up an old guitar, and it actually did change the sound ... I think he's about a thousand-fold safer bet ...

[Dwight]

Originally Posted by FrankS

No I am not making this up. I am not a guitar builder. I do science. Waves do not like transition points where the velocity of the wave changes. The more gradual the change the better. Abrupt is not good. Small differences can have profound effects in some systems. In guitars, not such a large effect but the science behind hide being in the right direction for sound is there. The magnitude is small though as previously stated.

Here is a old but really good and elementary video about this phenomenon. It is made for a non scientist so it should be understandable by all here. FYI, I read his book when I was 12 so that should be an indication of how easy hiss stuff is to follow. Great video to watch all of the way through but if you want to get to interfaces just ahead to around the 16 minute mark or even the 19 minute mark.

http://youtu.be/DovunOxlY1k

Frank Sanns

Frank, I studied electronics in tech school but this sort of thing requires some elementary thinking and learning if you're not a techie or an engineer. Isn't it a lot easier to assume hide glue is used so that luthiers can charge the gullible more money and buy bigger yachts.

[FrankS]

Originally Posted by David-NJ

You keep using emotive things such as sound waves do not "like" transition points. Or, on your website, making wood "forget that it was ever a tree". These things are as inanimate as inanimate gets.

I am curious, if you choose to share the data with us: how many guitarists have paid your $500 fee to have their guitars "acoustically optimized via energy stimulation", as contemplated on your website? I once paid Bryan Kimsey about that to hop up an old guitar, and it actually did change the sound ... I think he's about a thousand-fold safer bet ...

I have quite a positive reputation amongst my clients that include some well known musicians and luthiers. Last year I began limiting the number of guitars that come through my lab. I want to keep the AO1 process in the hands of those that play and can benefit from it most. I try not to do the process on guitars for collectors only. As for the website, I really do not even need it at this point but it is there for the layperson to read if they have interest.

Frank Sanns

[Stevie C]

We all know that different woods will provide different results in tone. We all know that different neck joints will provide different results. Same thing goes with strings. It seems to me that Frank provides sound reasoning in his analysis. Why is it difficult for people to grasp the idea that different glues can also have an effect? Logically, it makes sense.....some types of materials that bind wood together may very well allow sound waves to travel differently than others. The effects may be subtle, but likely do exist.

[rick-slo]

Lots of pseudo science on the topic of how hide glue would affect tone. Some luthiers whose work I respect say it does make a difference in tone, some say it does not make a difference in tone. Most, from what I can tell, use in for it's properties in construction and advantages in possible future repairs. For a custom guitar build I would let the luthier just use what he likes to use without comment from me.

[redir]

Originally Posted by zombywoof

I gather that hot hide glue fills gaps well and is a strong adhesive as long as the parts are clamped properly and tightly joined. Never really ever heard it had any impact on sound though.

No actually it has very poor gap filling abilities. This could be one reason why people think that hide glue guitars sound better... They are usually built by highly experienced luthiers who make perfect joints, perhaps that is what makes them sound better.

I don't buy it. And I highly doubt that anyone in a blind hearing test would be able to tell a difference.

Originally Posted by J Patrick

....its a fact that even the thinnest glue joint is is still a gasket of sorts...a hard gasket is gonna transfer sound more effectively than a softer one....why is that so hard to understand??....

The gasket model is not a good way of looking at it. Wood glue doesn't bond to itself very well but rather it forms a chemical bond with the substrate. It's not a gasket. Besides a glue like LMI White or tite bond dry rock hard.

[amyFB]

I work for a manufacturer of industrial adhesives (aka glue) .

We have had discussions with guitar makers regarding the properties of cured adhesives. There seems particular interest in the sound conducting properties of an adhesive, but confidentiality agreements prevent any knowledge of conclusions in this regard.

some epoxies are in use in the industry as well as cyanoacrylates; each has the possibility for a huge number of formula variations, and , often mfgs have customized stuff made for their particular circumstances. you'd never be able to purchase that as a consumer.

Cyanoacrylates (a.k.a. super glues, instant adhesives) have a wide range of uses AND can be found in a variety of formulations: thin, medium, thick and gel viscosities; low odor, low blooming; heat resistant; impact resistant; toughened.

super glue cure starts upon contact with trace amounts of moisture in the parts being bonded. (humid air can affect this too)
debonding fingers mistakenly glued is done by soaking in warm water for 15+minutes. DO NOT TRY TO PULL APART< use warm water and be patient >

The common mistakes in applying super glues are:
> moving component pieces after mating parts, but before cure is finished; if the polymerization process is disrupted, the bond breaks and you have to clean it all off and start over.
> too much glue - actually this is the #1 problem we run into. More is NOT better. use the least amount possible. these products are not suited to deep gap filling applications (except maybe the gel formulas)
> using out of date material ( buy new after 12 months)

New packages: store it unopened in fridge; allow to reach room temp before opening, to prevent condensation buildup that causes contents to cure.

My luthier buddy likes the black toughened formulas for repairs and filling dings on ebony.

have fun!
yours in tune!!

[Jschlueter]

Originally Posted by David-NJ

Exactly. Perfect analogy. I think of William Macy in _Fargo_ talking about charging the customer for Tru-Kote on his new car!!!

Anyway, back on topic...I like hide glue for its reparability but until an unbiased, conclusive experiment can be performed to prove its tonal benefits I have a hard time believing any claims to a noticeable difference.

[SOR]

Like many I've played mediocre sounding guitars using hide glue and great sounding ones using synthetics. I didn't for a minute attribute these results to the adhesives used. My point being regardless of the merits of the various the glues, their contribution is minimal relative to many other far more important factors.

[DanPanther]

One advantage to hide glue is. When it comes time that you may need a neck reset, some synthetic glues will not loosen up to remove the neck easily.

Dan