The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 08-12-2017, 10:09 PM
Irish Pennant Irish Pennant is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Viola Oregon
Posts: 1,612
Default Question about a five note scale.

I have a question about a five note scale. Please help educate me on this.

I was noodling around and came up with a 10 bar piece that I put on a looper. The guitar is capo'ed at the 7th fret. I'm playing D, Bm, D, Bm, D, Bm, E, G, D, D (Chord shape with capo on 7th fret G, Em, A, C) then the loop starts again. The scale that I'm using to improv over this is an E scale and I'm leaving the 3 and 6 note out of the scale, so E major or minor scale will have the same 5 notes. E, F#, A, B, D.

All my notations has that a "Standard" pentatonic scale leaves the 2 and 6 note out of the scale.

With leaving the 3 and 6 note out of the scale what do I call this scale?

Thanks for any and all help on furthering my education. Please keep it at a layman level, I have no formal education in music, just what I've been able to pick up from home study.


Edit: After further study, I've found that these notes are also in a "Standard" Bm Pentatonic.
__________________
The Blond
The Brunette
The Red Head
The Old Lady
Goldilocks
Flipper

"Sometimes I play a song I never heard before" Thelonious Monk

Last edited by Irish Pennant; 08-13-2017 at 07:03 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-13-2017, 07:31 AM
FwL FwL is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 301
Default

Or D major pentatonic. Depends on how you're phrasing your lines.

.
__________________
.
.

Playing Guitar - Books, Free Lessons & Practice Resources
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-13-2017, 08:19 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,450
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Pennant View Post
Edit: After further study, I've found that these notes are also in a "Standard" Bm Pentatonic.
Exactly - aka D major pentatonic, as FwL points out.

Of course the scale works in different ways on different chords, depending on how many (and which) chord tones it contains, and which extensions it contains.

It's most "inside" on D and Bm chords, as you might guess. It contains all 3 chord tones, plus two good consonant extensions (6th and 9th on major, 4th and 7th on minor).
(And that's in whatever key you find those chords, because they both occur in the keys of D, G and A. The pent is diatonic to all those keys, always sounds right on those chords.)

On a G chord, it contains the 3rd and 5th (B-D), adds 6th and 9th (as above, E-A in this case), but replaces the root with the maj7 (F#). So it gives a kind of sweet wistfulness to a G chord.

On an Em chord, it contains root and 5th (E-B), adds 4th and 7th (A-D), and provides the 4th (A) in place of the 3rd. This gives it an "E7sus4" sound - although only on an Em (or E) chord.
The lowest or starting note of a scale has no bearing on the modal or chord sound on the chord; the chord rules that. That's why it's important you don't regard your scale as any kind of "E" scale - unless you're improvising on an E-root chord. It's just the notes A B D E F# (alphabetical order), which work differently on each chord, regardless of which pattern you use. Soundwise, they relate to the chord root (and other chord tones), not to your starting note or the lowest note of your pattern.

It's worth exploring all the other ways it works on various chords (in keys of D, G and A).
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-13-2017, 09:21 AM
Irish Pennant Irish Pennant is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Viola Oregon
Posts: 1,612
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FwL View Post
Or D major pentatonic. Depends on how you're phrasing your lines.

.
Here's the noodle
__________________
The Blond
The Brunette
The Red Head
The Old Lady
Goldilocks
Flipper

"Sometimes I play a song I never heard before" Thelonious Monk
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-13-2017, 09:25 AM
Irish Pennant Irish Pennant is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Viola Oregon
Posts: 1,612
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Exactly - aka D major pentatonic, as FwL points out.

Of course the scale works in different ways on different chords, depending on how many (and which) chord tones it contains, and which extensions it contains.

It's most "inside" on D and Bm chords, as you might guess. It contains all 3 chord tones, plus two good consonant extensions (6th and 9th on major, 4th and 7th on minor).
(And that's in whatever key you find those chords, because they both occur in the keys of D, G and A. The pent is diatonic to all those keys, always sounds right on those chords.)

On a G chord, it contains the 3rd and 5th (B-D), adds 6th and 9th (as above, E-A in this case), but replaces the root with the maj7 (F#). So it gives a kind of sweet wistfulness to a G chord.

On an Em chord, it contains root and 5th (E-B), adds 4th and 7th (A-D), and provides the 4th (A) in place of the 3rd. This gives it an "E7sus4" sound - although only on an Em (or E) chord.
The lowest or starting note of a scale has no bearing on the modal or chord sound on the chord; the chord rules that. That's why it's important you don't regard your scale as any kind of "E" scale - unless you're improvising on an E-root chord. It's just the notes A B D E F# (alphabetical order), which work differently on each chord, regardless of which pattern you use. Soundwise, they relate to the chord root (and other chord tones), not to your starting note or the lowest note of your pattern.

It's worth exploring all the other ways it works on various chords (in keys of D, G and A).
Thank you for your help and for your time.

It will take a little bit for me to digest this. I will study it.

The way in which I'm playing this noodle, tonally, at least to my ears, I can't fit the C# note in from the D major pentatonic scale.
__________________
The Blond
The Brunette
The Red Head
The Old Lady
Goldilocks
Flipper

"Sometimes I play a song I never heard before" Thelonious Monk
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-13-2017, 11:31 AM
Llewlyn Llewlyn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: San Francisco (CA)
Posts: 342
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Pennant View Post
I was noodling around and came up with a 10 bar piece that I put on a looper. The guitar is capo'ed at the 7th fret. I'm playing D, Bm, D, Bm, D, Bm, E, G, D, D (Chord shape with capo on 7th fret G, Em, A, C) then the loop starts again.
As pointed out by others, the tune seems to be in D major (= B minor). So I'd use a D major scale to improvise.

The only chord which is out of the scale is that E. It should be Em (that is, with a G) but instead is E major (i.e. with a G#). This means that when you are improvising on the D scale, you should not sound the note G in the bar of E but you should add the G# instead in that scale.

If that sounds hard, the excellent workaround is to use the D pentatonic, which doesn't contain either G or G# so you are good to go throughout the whole chord progression.

Ll.
__________________
Martin OM-28 1931 Authentic | Martin CEO-7
Taylor GS Mini Mahogany | Logan Custom Telecaster
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-13-2017, 03:34 PM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,031
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Pennant View Post
Thank you for your help and for your time.

It will take a little bit for me to digest this. I will study it.

The way in which I'm playing this noodle, tonally, at least to my ears, I can't fit the C# note in from the D major pentatonic scale.
D major pentatonic (Bm pentatonic) doesn't have a C#, just D E F# A B, afaik.
__________________
"Militantly left-handed."

Lefty Acoustics

Martin 00-15M
Taylor 320e Baritone

Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-13-2017, 04:18 PM
Irish Pennant Irish Pennant is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Viola Oregon
Posts: 1,612
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunnyDee View Post
D major pentatonic (Bm pentatonic) doesn't have a C#, just D E F# A B, afaik.
I'm not understanding.

Isn't a Dmaj scale D,E,F#,G,A,B,C# and a Dmaj pentatonic D,F#,G,A,C#?

and a Bm scale B,C#,D,E,F#,G,A, and a Bm pentatonic B,D,E,F#,A

I can see that the 7 note scales have the same notes but the pentatonic scales seem to be different between the Dmaj and the Bm.

Thanks again for all the input and for making me think music.
__________________
The Blond
The Brunette
The Red Head
The Old Lady
Goldilocks
Flipper

"Sometimes I play a song I never heard before" Thelonious Monk

Last edited by Irish Pennant; 08-13-2017 at 04:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-13-2017, 05:16 PM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,031
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Pennant View Post
I'm not understanding.

Isn't a Dmaj scale D,E,F#,G,A,B,C# and a Dmaj pentatonic D,F#,G,A,C#?

and a Bm scale B,C#,D,E,F#,G,A, and a Bm pentatonic B,D,E,F#,A

I can see that the 7 note scales have the same notes but the pentatonic scales seem to be different between the Dmaj and the Bm.

Thanks again for all the input and for making me think music.
No, I think you are confusing the formula for major with the one for minor. Major pentatonic is 1, 2, 3, 5, 6. Minor pent is 1, 3, 4, 5, 7. They have the same notes, because major pentatonic is just dropping out the half steps from the major scale and the minor is the same just starting on a different note.

In solfege, which is how I think of scales, that's dropping the fa and ti. I think this makes it easier to see how they are related. Major - do re mi (fa) so la (ti), Minor - la (ti) do re mi (fa) so
__________________
"Militantly left-handed."

Lefty Acoustics

Martin 00-15M
Taylor 320e Baritone

Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten)

Last edited by SunnyDee; 08-13-2017 at 05:28 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-13-2017, 05:31 PM
Irish Pennant Irish Pennant is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Viola Oregon
Posts: 1,612
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunnyDee View Post
No, I think you are confusing the formula for major with the one for minor. Major pentatonic is 1, 2, 3, 5, 6. Minor pent is 1, 3, 4, 5, 7. They have the same notes, because major pentatonic is just dropping out the half steps from the major scale and the minor is the same just starting on a different note.

In solfege, which is how I think of scales, that's dropping the fa and ti. I think this makes it easier to see how they are related. Major - do re mi (fa) so la (ti), Minor - la (ti) do re mi (fa) so
Thanks for clarifying this, yes I was getting the major pentatonic scale wrong. This helps a lot.
__________________
The Blond
The Brunette
The Red Head
The Old Lady
Goldilocks
Flipper

"Sometimes I play a song I never heard before" Thelonious Monk
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-13-2017, 05:35 PM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,031
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish Pennant View Post
Thanks for clarifying this, yes I was getting the major pentatonic scale wrong. This helps a lot.
You're welcome. I've just learned theory in the past couple years myself. I remember the confusion.
__________________
"Militantly left-handed."

Lefty Acoustics

Martin 00-15M
Taylor 320e Baritone

Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten)
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=