What are your reasons for using a "Stick" style amp (Bose, Fishman, HK, JBL) .

[krisls]

Must admit I love the portability of the SA220 ( the only one I've really tried) and similar. If I had the dollars to have both, say an RCF Evox or HK Elements set up I would have that and my QSC's.

But as I am a lowly .. read poor.. musician , I will stick with the K10's as they cover all the basses that I need. The smaller 'array' setups would work for maybe half or more of the gigs I do but certainly not all, so....

Kris

[Kalani]

I did the sound for a trio in a small ballroom at a hotel. I used my Bose L1 and it was just perfect for the room! My powered JBL's would've been too overwhelming and wouldn't have been able to attain the same, even coverage as the Bose.

But I still use my JBL's for my own solo/duo/trio gigs as my brain is stuck in the traditional PA sound.

[Pecx]

Traditional and great sound

[Johnny.guitar]

Ditto to all the comments. I switched to a solo or duo format a couple of years ago and was still using conventional PA for a while. We were playing a pub and I sat out for a couple tunes and walked around. The sound to the side sucked. Stand out front and it's good but loud. My partner already had a Bose L1C so I bought one as well. Also picked up a Behringer XR16 and it's an extremely portable, flexible great sounding system.
Still have my powered speakers but have not needed them at all

[myersbw]

Like others, for me, the appeal was to hear exactly what my audience heard. No in-ear monitors for me.

But, mind you, I built my own system. Why? Because after studying Bose's "articulated array" for the 24 speaker system and seeing them use 2.25" speakers @ various angles...why not do your own? I took the easy route to do it quickly...I bought some very cheap 'four tweeter array boxes'...pulled & tossed the cheap tweeters...dropped in some full-range $15 3" TangBand drivers and wired them up. Used pipe clamps & flat rubber to attach to the pole and be able to spread the two boxes apart on the vertical axis.

Inverted an old 15" Peavey passive speaker that had a blown horn and mounted the pole in that. Used a cheap Crown amp...powered the array with one channel and the large peavey with the other.

Overall, it was amazing. I ended up with $500 in it, but traded it for a nice PRS as I just didn't use it much (working a lot). What it did was prove my point that, with a little sweat equity...Craigslist swaps...and minimal speaker purchases...it was easy to get a very workable "stick" style PA without spending a lot of money on one. And, actually do it one better if you research your drivers a bit.

My premise to start was...there was not much science behind an "articulated array" because...as soon as you fill moving bodies into a room...the acoustics go all over the place in regard to any analysis. So, the real key was enough elevated dispersion that you could fan out and cover the entire room you gig in with sufficient gain, no feedback and good quality sound.

Good luck!

[Elisdad]

We bought the JBL Eon one for a few reasons: ease of setup and small footprint. It needed to fit in a minivan carrying 4 people, upright bass, mandolin, and sometimes an acoustic guitar.

[Paultergeist]

Originally Posted by myersbw

........

But, mind you, I built my own system. Why? Because after studying Bose's "articulated array" for the 24 speaker system and seeing them use 2.25" speakers @ various angles...why not do your own? I took the easy route to do it quickly...I bought some very cheap 'four tweeter array boxes'...pulled & tossed the cheap tweeters...dropped in some full-range $15 3" TangBand drivers and wired them up. Used pipe clamps & flat rubber to attach to the pole and be able to spread the two boxes apart on the vertical axis.

.......My premise to start was...there was not much science behind an "articulated array" because...as soon as you fill moving bodies into a room...the acoustics go all over the place in regard to any analysis. So, the real key was enough elevated dispersion that you could fan out and cover the entire room you gig in with sufficient gain, no feedback and good quality sound.

Good luck!

Wow. I think it is very cool that you built your own system. You make it sound very easy, but I actually suspect that your technical knowledge is pretty developed -- such that things which may seem simple to you might yet be a bit complex to others.

I appreciate your observation, in particular, that there is not a lot of "deep science" mystery to these things. Some manufacturers posture as though the engineering specifics inside of their particular system are so sophisticated and advanced that no mere mortal could hope to replicate the performance of such. Having now looked inside of one of these systems, I see a bunch of tweeters all connected together in-phase, often all aligned on the same plane (though some manufacturers now tilt the tweeters out a bit for more dispersion). Bi-amp between the sub and the array of mids/tweeters, single crossover to divide the signal, and the standard EQ and reverb. Claims of the mid/tweeters being somehow differentially operated via a complex set computer algorithms -- something I have at times heard the salespeople say -- seem unfounded. Point is: I think these systems are exactly what they appear to be: a mini line array of mid/tweeters up high, supported by a sub on the floor. I am not saying it is a bad design at all, just that I hate to see the un-founded sense of mysticism sometimes propagated in the performance claims.

It is very cool that you built your own system.

[Nama Ensou]

Originally Posted by Paultergeist

...I hate to see the un-founded sense of mysticism sometimes propagated in the performance claims.

Even as a fan of a lot of Bose products their attitude towards these line arrays with subwoofer is definitely a bit ridiculous, especially when you see that they didn't so much introduce the idea as go back to it. Used to be lots of pa columns from manufacturers like Altec, and my own first pair of speakers was a pair of the extremely rare JBL Cabaret 4682 columns which consisted of 4x10" speakers and a pair of bullet tweeters on top. About the equivalent of having 4x15" speakers, and they definitely moved some air.
What Bose and others have done is to realize that a line array doesn't need the bottom end to be coming from everywhere as it's the mids and highs that are more directional, so they went with tiny speakers to get the mids and highs up in the air and gain the natural benefits of a line array, which is horizontal dispersion. Then replace the missing bottom end, which is not directional, with a sub down at the bottom.

[TheShadowKnows]

When I started out on my 'array' pilgrimage, I sincerely tried the fish stick / Fishman SA220. It was in a 25'x25' room with a 15' ceiling. It threw the sound well but there was a sharp cutoff on the horizontal axis. If you walked to one side of the unit or the other, you'd lose your clear sound & it would be muffled. Not to mention the unit hissed like crazy at any gain setting. I think it was defective because that's something it's NOT supposed to do.
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Next I tried the Bose L1C, acoustic Martin plugged straight in . If you like arrays, it sounded fantastic. 180 degrees horizontal coverage it seemed. The mixer was seriously lacking. Just a guitar input, no EQ. Also I had to crank the channel volume to 3/4's to fill that room mentioned above. The L1C's are 2x 65 watts, one amp for the 8" sub, the other for the array, the Bose rep said. I'm guessing it would top out quickly if you push it in any way.
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I tried the Harbinger array. Not bad but a sharp drop off like the SA220. Had plenty of power and EQ on the Master channel. Nice touch. I'd buy one as a backup to my JBL Eon 1.
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That's what I plunked my hard earned cash on, the Eon 1. Got a roller bag in the deal too! The JBL has a 10" sub, the Bose an 8". The JBL has 250 watts for the sub & 130 watts for the array. Power to spare for days! Plus personally, I liked the crossover frequency (200hz) because it blended the 2 sound sources nicely.
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It is a beast on weight, 41 lbs but I got a roller case, so that's not much of a problem. Just think of it like walking a heavy reluctant dog on a leash. Also another cool feature is the array pieces fit in the back of the sub. One stop shopping. That sold me & now I have it in my sound arsenal for medium + gigs.
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The Fishman does have a roller type bag for all the stuff to fit in, which is nice. Or you can shoulder sling it. That's one stop shopping too. But the EON 1 you can literally set it up in less than a minute. I'm not joking here. The guys who own one will attest to that fact. But if you like to futz with speaker stands, cords & what have you, have at it. The Eon 1 works for me. Some guys say, 'less is more'. I often disagree with that (when it comes to my guitars) but when hauling a P.A., that is the Zen of sound.

[slewis]

The point I always get to on topics like this is if your audience is going to discern between a "tone and sound quality score" of, say, 90 and one of, say, 98.

I doubt it.

There are SO many viable PA/amp options out there now -- Bose, Fishman, JBL, Yamaha, Mackie, Fender, QSC and lots more -- and really, 95% of most any audience (at least the ones I play to, in wine bars and lounges) are going to be fine with whatever they're hearing. Of course, it's also really nice from the performer perspective to also like the quality of your sound. But man, I just don't sweat trying to reach audio nirvana when I know, and am happy with, a system that I think sounds very good but also helps me out in other ways -- like portability, quick set-up/tear-down, reliability and features I like. So that's how I approach it, and I now gig with either a Bose L1 Model II system or a Fishman SA-220, when the room is a little smaller. When I weighed all those factors, these are what ultimately work great for me, and -- musical talents aside! -- I'm pretty sure that the audiences in the venues I play are just fine with the quality of the sound. George Martin might tsk-tsk at me over a detail here or there, but Abbey Road Studios, or Carnegie Hall, or the Grand Ole Opry it ain't.

Weigh all the factors that matter to you and go forth. That's my $.02 worth. Good luck!

[SalFromChatham]

I play in a duo. Most of the time we play through his Bose, and it's excellent. Sometimes we play bigger places, and we also bring my SA330. It's also outstanding. I will say, as a user of both, the Fishman is so dang easy to set up. Slight edge there.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

I believe that they do. I used various Bose L1 systems for over a decade. I started with the Classic with the big round base. I then moved to the Model 2 when that was released and added a Compact for smaller shows.

Two years ago I sold all of my Bose gear and bought a bunch of QSC K series speakers. When I was testing them at home against the Bose L1 Model 2 I much preferred the sound of the QSC stuff.

But when I started my summer "tour" I remembered the downfall of conventional speakers. That sound quality that I noticed with the QSC stuff is only available to some of my audience.

Most of my shows are outside and I seldom have all of my audience (and potential audience) directly in front of me. I do concerts in the park and festival type atmospheres and other outdoor venues where I could have people sitting off to the side or even behind me. With the Bose system my music was able to reach all of these people. Not so with the QSC stuff. At least if I was using two FOH speakers.

I also noticed that if I was trying to reach the back of a large and/or loud venue, the volume close to the speakers was too much for people.

So I kind of went with what I consider a hybrid route. I sold all of the QSC stuff I bought two JBL Eon One systems. To me they kind of split the difference. They are more musical than the Bose and sound more like conventional speakers yet they offer more of the "surround-sound" qualities that the Bose L1 system did.

Having two of them gives me a ton of flexibility. I played a winery this past Saturday and I was set up in the middle of essentially two different patios. I set up one Eon One for each patio and easily covered the entire area without much volume. People sat really close to the systems and were able to talk or enjoy the music and people all the way at the far end of the long patio could hear me just fine.

I'm now getting the coverage I had with the Bose with what I consider to be a better sound quality. And, as you mentioned, the set up and tear down with the Eon Ones is super fast. They are a bit of a beast to lug around but not messing with speaker stands and endless bags and cables is so nice!

The key is choosing the right system(s) for you, your music and your venues. This works for me.

Matt

I am looking to get something better than my Fishman Solo
Of course realizing "better" is subjective.
Interesting that you feel the sound is "Better" with the Eon. I have looked and auditioned the Bose many times, but have honestly always been bit underwhelmed at the sound. Lots of sound over a wide area to be sure, but It always seemed a slight bit diffuse.
So couple quick questions if I may pick your brain a bit , do you feel you are getting better detail and presence throughout the frequency range, and do you think the crossover to the woofer is seamless ? Or in other words better in what specific ways ?

The other unit I have been considering is the Line 6 StageSource L2t ( it claims 100 degree horizontal coverage like the Eon One )but hoisting a 40 lb speaker up onto the pole while doable is not very appealing at 67

[martingitdave]

Here's a chart I put together on the topic. Hopefully, it helps.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by TheShadowKnows

I tried the Harbinger array. Not bad but a sharp drop off like the SA220. Had plenty of power and EQ on the Master channel. Nice touch. I'd buy one as a backup to my JBL Eon 1.
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That's what I plunked my hard earned cash on, the Eon 1. Got a roller bag in the deal too! The JBL has a 10" sub, the Bose an 8". The JBL has 250 watts for the sub & 130 watts for the array. Power to spare for days! Plus personally, I liked the crossover frequency (200hz) because it blended the 2 sound sources nicely.
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It is a beast on weighs, 41 lbs but I got a roller case, so that's not much of a problem. Just think of it like walking a heavy reluctant dog on a leash. Also another cool feature is the array pieces fit in the back of the sub. One stop shopping. That sold me & now I have it in my sound arsenal for medium + gigs.
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Shadow and I went through the buying process at the same time and came to the same conclusion. Since then, I've purchased three smaller systems for smaller audiences. All three are by Mackie. The DLM8, Reach, and FreePlay.

The DLM8 is capable of excellent sound, but the ob-board mixer is severely crippled by poor design.

The FreePlay weighs 11 lbs and can be powered by a rechargeable battery. It's downfall is a poor preamp gain stage for the line inputs. The mixer has 2 XLR channels, Bluetooth/aux, effects, and smart impedance choices. It is otherwise a very fine sounding small system. My workaround is to use guitars with active pickups, or a preamp, and plug in with a special built XLR-TS cable that activates the 20 dB mic preamp. The active pickup provides proper impedance matching. In the end, the only extra gear that's required is a special cable.

The Reach also suffers from the same mixer preamp problems. I use the same workaround. But, it has become my favorite tool. The mixer has 4 XLR channels, Bluetooth/aux, effects, smart impedance choices, built in side fill monitors, and it's fairly portable. For it's size and weight it produces excellent sound. In fact, it has a flatter response than most 2-way PA speakers and better dispersion than most column array systems. That's impressive. The downside is that it have a fairly tame practical volume ceiling due to the internal amplifier limiters and 6.5" woofers.


I now use the following combos based on what I have available:

Small room - quiet people: Mackie FreePlay w/ TC Play Acoustic (optional)
Medium room - conversation level: Mackie Reach w/ TC Play Acoustic (optional)
Medium or large room: JBL Eon One w/ TC Play Acoustic & DLM8 monitor (optional)

Other considerations:

For an ensemble, I add the QSC TouchMmix to the above. In battery powered situations, I take the FreePlay by itself. If I need more power, I can put the DLM8 on a pole as a supplemental speaker.

Given a "do-over" or a larger budget?:

I would probably keep the the FreePlay and Reach and sell the other speakers. If I wanted more power, I would repalce the JBL Eon One and DLM8 with a pair of QSC K8.2s or K10.2s. My reasoning is that I do very few bar gigs where the Eon One is the "right" "Goldilocks" tool. Others play those types of gigs every night, but I don't. So, using the TouchMix and speakers would give me a more modular approach. It would also allow me to do more monitor configurations. But, seeing that my audiences are getting smaller, I don't intend to invest any more money in speakers. Frankly, as mentioned, the Reach is an excellent tool for me. There is absolutely no compromise is sound quality, and it's capable enough for the places I play. Getting is refurbished from Mackie at a large discount made it even better.

[Al Acuff]

I got tired of schlepping a PA to hotel and bar gigs. I used a Fishman Solo amp for a while and found it to be OK sound wise and a pleasure in terms of weight and fast set up.

Sometimes I found the Fishstick was to big. In an intimate cafe it's overkill. Other times in rowdy bars I wished for more throw and dispersion but it did the job for me. I never really got used to hearing the sound behind me. In a rowdy bar I prefer a spot monitor to my left or in front of me. (Sometimes you need to turn your monitor up without raising the volume in the room––an expample would playing a gig while suffering a bad cold and congestion.)

At this point in time I've gone with a small 2 channel acoustic amp AND a compact PA that works both as a tower system and as a 2.1 stereo system (HK Audio). It weighs 36 pounds and is easy to cary. When I use the PA then the small amp becomes my personal monitor. The rig is scalable depending on the size and shape of the room.

If you play a variety of gigs then IMHO your system's scalability and dispersion is something to consider. Tower PAs are a generally a one size fits all solution. They work everywhere but there are compromises made to achieve that. Their convenience and portability are the main selling points.