Any Observations On Baggs Session VTC PU System?

[guitaniac]

I didn't even know this pickup system existed until browsing on the LR Baggs website just now. Its apparently an onboard system which employs the Element transducer and some of the Session DI's signal processing mojo.

I'm always curious about new systems. Are there any user observations on this one?

[JoshuaCYS]

It's relatively new in the market. Hopefully we'll see more people using this pickup in the coming months

[EarlG]

The first YouTube demo...

[guitaniac]

Thanks Earl. I'd already searched out and heard that vid, but its likely that some of the other folks who're curious about the Session VTC haven't found it yet. I probably should have linked to it myself, and I'm grateful that you were thoughtful enough to do so.

In any event, I thought the system worked well for that slow style of picking in the vid. The trebles sounded nicely phat (possibly thanks to the saturation factor) and the bass never obscured the trebles (possibly thanks to the "dynamic equalization" factor).

[EarlG]

Thanks, guitaniac. What's intriguing to me here is that of all their pickups Baggs chose the Element for this new model. I agree it does sound reasonably good. But I think it's time that a real game changer immerged, and out from under the saddle.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by EarlG

Thanks, guitaniac. What's intriguing to me here is that of all their pickups Baggs chose the Element for this new model. I agree it does sound reasonably good. But I think it's time that a real game changer immerged, and out from under the saddle.

I was thinking something similar, as I suspect that better overall results (tone wise) could be had by applying the Session electronics to the Anthem or Lyric systems. With the Lyric especially, I personally prefer blending with the signal from a PUTW I/O UST, partially because it thickens up those thin sounding (to my ear) trebles. I imagine some Session saturation might do the same thing, and I imagine that studio-applied saturation is one reason why the Ricky Scaggs Lyric demo sounded so good.

I also think the Anthem trebles sound a little thin at times, but overall I like its stand-alone sound better than the Lyric, especially when I use a Zoom A3 to tweak the EQ on the Anthem signal. (With my particular Anthem rig, there is no perfectly satisfying mic level sweet spot. I have to EQ down both the low end muddiness and some high-end brittleness.)

On the other hand, the Element is certainly the pickup (of those three) which needs the most help tone wise.

[MrErikJ]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

I was thinking something similar, as I suspect that better overall results (tone wise) could be had by applying the Session electronics to the Anthem or Lyric systems. With the Lyric especially, I personally prefer blending with the signal from a PUTW I/O UST, partially because it thickens up those thin sounding (to my ear) trebles. I imagine some Session saturation might do the same thing, and I imagine that studio-applied saturation is one reason why the Ricky Scaggs Lyric demo sounded so good.

I also think the Anthem trebles sound a little thin at times, but overall I like its stand-alone sound better than the Lyric, especially when I use a Zoom A3 to tweak the EQ on the Anthem signal. (With my particular Anthem rig, there is no perfectly satisfying mic level sweet spot. I have to EQ down both the low end muddiness and some high-end brittleness.)

On the other hand, the Element is certainly the pickup (of those three) which needs the most help tone wise.

I think the UST still serves as a very dependable string-sensor so we won't see it entirely removed from multi-source systems for a long time, possibly ever.

However, I do prefer the tone of the LB6 to the Element, which is a bit thin and quacky to my ears. The Element is a more sensitive piezo material, but it still suffers from the tonal effects of string and saddle pressure, which is substantial. The LB6 sensors are encased within the saddle, so they are shielded from the pressure that creates such harsh piezo tones. I think, in regards to a UST, combining the LB6 with the Anthem mic or the Session VTC would yield better results.

As a matter of fact, Doyle Dykes employs the LB6 with a pressure mic on his new Godin Multiac and has the Session preamp on board. Some of the samples I've heard are quite impressive.

[guitaniac]

I'm a former LB6 user myself. It certainly has some good qualities, but its much harder to install than the Element - especially in guitars with a 3/32" wide saddle slot. That has to be one factor involved with Baggs opting to match the Element and the True Mic.


My other reservation regarding the LB6 is that two of the crystals are wired to be out-of-phase with the other crystals. This is done to make the LB6 less feedback prone, but I have to think it may also cause some problems with blending the LB6 signal with a mic signal.

[MrErikJ]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

I'm a former LB6 user myself. It certainly has some good qualities, but its much harder to install than the Element - especially in guitars with a 3/32" wide saddle slot. That has to be one factor involved with Baggs opting to match the Element and the True Mic.


My other reservation regarding the LB6 is that two of the crystals are wired to be out-of-phase with the other crystals. This is done to make the LB6 less feedback prone, but I have to think it may also cause some problems with blending the LB6 signal with a mic signal.

I definitely think the installation of the LB6 is its primary deterrent and the reason it isn't used in more of dual source systems. Many people don't want to alter their bridge to that level and a bad install negates any of the pickups advantages over a standard UST. However, the phase issue is difficult to quantify or confirm as it has been used in numerous dual source systems for decades (The Baggs Duet & Dual Source in particular and as I mentioned, the new Doyle Dykes signature Godin) and I use it blended with a PUTW #54 with success. A phase switch will go a long way to correct any phase matters.

But, the LB6 is definitely a commitment if you install it. I think it's, overall, a better pickup but the Element is more sensitive and easier to install. However, I just always feel the Element tends to breakup and clip at a lower threshold than the LB6 and I've always found myself thinking that the Anthem would sound better with the LB6. I'm curious if anyone has ever tried to modify the Anthem in that manner.

[guitaniac]

Eric,

I was curious about your Doyle Dykes comments, so I went looking for him playing an LB6 Multiac with Tru Mic and Session electronics. I recall that he had an LB6-equipped Guild signature model, but the latest Godin which I found him playing was the Godin Multiac Ambiance with Fishman Aura electronics. I'd be interested in hearing the LB6/Session guitar, if you can give me a linc.

Thanks in advance.

[MrErikJ]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Eric,

I was curious about your Doyle Dykes comments, so I went looking for him playing an LB6 Multiac with Tru Mic and Session electronics. I recall that he had an LB6-equipped Guild signature model, but the latest Godin which I found him playing was the Godin Multiac Ambiance with Fishman Aura electronics. I'd be interested in hearing the LB6/Session guitar, if you can give me a linc.

Thanks in advance.

You're correct, he's been playing the Duet Ambience for awhile and it sounds great. He just debuted his signature model and here he is talking about it. The clip sounds "ok" compared to others I've seen. Whatever he's plugged into is giving up the ghost too much or he doesn't have the Session's compression dialed-in enough. However, he gives a good overview of the guitar and how it differs from the other Multiacs

https://youtu.be/IQWfAyD8K2Y

Here's one of him performing with it (his signature model is black with the Chet style "thumb" inlays) and it sounds nice. I'm sure the compression & saturation effects, dialed in with the piezo and mic is a good combo. I don't think it's for sale yet and it's not listed on their website, but Godin is awful at maintaining their site and social media.

https://youtu.be/qP9l4DI5wbQ

[guitaniac]

Thanks so much for the links, Eric. Well worth the listen.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

My other reservation regarding the LB6 is that two of the crystals are wired to be out-of-phase with the other crystals. This is done to make the LB6 less feedback prone, but I have to think it may also cause some problems with blending the LB6 signal with a mic signal.

Lloyd told me this is why it wouldn't work with for the Anthem. They apparently tried.

[MrErikJ]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Lloyd told me this is why it wouldn't work with for the Anthem. They apparently tried.

That's interesting, but I wonder what it is about the Anthem mic that has made this combo unworkable? People have been combining the LB6 w/condensor mics (as with the Baggs Duet & Dual Source) and SBTs for years. Many self-developed dual source systems feature the LB6 and a mic or SBT. I imagine it must be specific to the electronics of the Anthem?

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by MrErikJ

That's interesting, but I wonder what it is about the Anthem mic that has made this combo unworkable? People have been combining the LB6 w/condensor mics (as with the Baggs Duet & Dual Source) and SBTs for years. Many self-developed dual source systems feature the LB6 and a mic or SBT. I imagine it must be specific to the electronics of the Anthem?

Maybe the big problem was in the crossover circuit, which must be a pretty dicey thing. You have to keep the UST frequencies below 250Hz and the mic frequencies above 250Hz and keep enough of each signal at 250Hz that you don't have a signal level drop off or a signal level excess around 250Hz. That's a problem that the homemade systems don't specifically deal with, though some of the mic signal's low end may be rolled off before blending.