How to learn notes on the fretboard

[rick-slo]

The majority of "spontaneous" playing is the repetition of prior learned patterns. That plus a good ear might get you something musically interesting. In spontaneous playing the memorizing of note locations all over the fretboard might get you somewhere if you have in addition a solid grasp of general musical theory and you can think very fast in its application. I go more with leaning full chord positions and the interval jumps needed to go from one to the other. Coming from a classical guitar background I generally rely on memorizing most of the things I play.

[tbeltrans]

The approach that I described earlier in this thread works really for me. I have not played with anybody (last one was in a jazz group) for several years now. This week, I played all manner of fills and chording with a friend who write his own songs and does some covers. He is looking for a second acoustic guitarist to add on his gigs to fill things up a bit. I fell right into it, quickly figuring out the key and where I needed to be and when on the fretboard. I was laying down fills, leads, chords elsewhere on the fretboard to add breadth to his chording, etc. He uses a capo quite a bit, but I tend to much prefer to keep the whoe fretboard intact.

Knowing your way around the fretboard, knowing how scales are built, how chords are spelled, really makes a huge difference in what can be done in these musical situations.

The method I described is obviously just one of many, but it is really simple and can be done in just minutes a day, yet the results are "field tested". If the method was good enough for Ted Greene, it is certainly good enough for me.

We can make this stuff as complicated as we wish, but I always have to ask...why...when it really doesn't have to be.

Tony

[FwL]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

Knowing your way around the fretboard, knowing how scales are built, how chords are spelled, really makes a huge difference in what can be done in these musical situations.

Exactly


What got me going was playing in a band with another guitar player who didn't mind rubbing my nose in the fact that he was a much better player. One day I overheard him asking the bass player what he thought of some Al Di Meola lick he had thrown into his solo on a song we were playing. At the time I couldn't imagine how somebody could even figure out an Al Di Meola lick more or less know they could throw that lick into a solo in the middle of a rock and roll song.

At that point I figured I better start trying to learn my way around the instrument rather than relying on a few basic chords and a couple pentatonic patterns I managed to pick up here and there.

[Shimmy]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

The approach that I described earlier in this thread works really for me. I have not played with anybody (last one was in a jazz group) for several years now. This week, I played all manner of fills and chording with a friend who write his own songs and does some covers. He is looking for a second acoustic guitarist to add on his gigs to fill things up a bit. I fell right into it, quickly figuring out the key and where I needed to be and when on the fretboard. I was laying down fills, leads, chords elsewhere on the fretboard to add breadth to his chording, etc. He uses a capo quite a bit, but I tend to much prefer to keep the whoe fretboard intact.

Knowing your way around the fretboard, knowing how scales are built, how chords are spelled, really makes a huge difference in what can be done in these musical situations.

The method I described is obviously just one of many, but it is really simple and can be done in just minutes a day, yet the results are "field tested". If the method was good enough for Ted Greene, it is certainly good enough for me.

We can make this stuff as complicated as we wish, but I always have to ask...why...when it really doesn't have to be.

Tony

I agree, which is why I advocate my students learn to do just that. I firmly believe that no knowledge is a waste but it's how you apply it that is important. However, my point was directed at those that suggest that learning something like CAGED is limiting when it is not the system that is limiting, it's the players own inadequacies holding them back. The truth is learning patters is an important part of playing any instrument and shouldn't be dismissed.

[RodB]

Originally Posted by amyFB

Found this over at the Jazz forum and I think it a clever idea that I am going to try:

"...there are 7 notes, and their attendant sharp/flats. On Monday, learn where every A is, that will give you Ab and A# as well. Do B on Tuesday. By Sunday, it's done."

In naming the notes, sounds good advice. So - how did it go?

However I agree with some of the other posts, when playing and translating what is heard in your head to the fingerboard, I rely heavily on hearing the interval and knowing the relative position on the fret board, and on patterns reinforced over the years - whether from knowing chords in various positions / inversions or just from having used these patterns in various pieces of music.

I also believe this tends to make us listen to what we are playing, anticipating the next 'move' as 'when and where' not just 'what', and hence help impart more feeling and less of a mechanical approach.

I like the point Shimmy makes in particular that thinking what the name of the note(s) is should not get in the way.

[stanron]

There is a lot of talk here about the position of notes on the fretboard and their names. There is a third element that does not seem to be getting much attention and that is the sound of the notes. If you don't know the sound of the notes you play it could be argued that you are not actually playing music, you are just playing a sequence of notes or positions. For practising scales that's OK. If you are learning a solo guitar piece it's the standard way to start. If you are improvising you should know what notes will sound like before you play them.

I'm not talking about perfect pitch here I'm talking about relative pitch. Once you've played the root you will know the sound of the root. You should also know the sound of the third, even before you play it. You should know the sound of the fourth and the fifth. In fact you should know the sound of all the notes in the scale.

One more exercise, play a root note and then hum or imagine the sound of the scale. Think your way up to a note in the scale and then play it to check.

Pre-requisites for this exercise are a knowledge of a scale pattern and the ability to play it and hum or imagine it. Funnily enough the names of the notes don't really matter. They could come later.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Shimmy

I agree, which is why I advocate my students learn to do just that. I firmly believe that no knowledge is a waste but it's how you apply it that is important. However, my point was directed at those that suggest that learning something like CAGED is limiting when it is not the system that is limiting, it's the players own inadequacies holding them back. The truth is learning patters is an important part of playing any instrument and shouldn't be dismissed.

I fully agree with you. When playing, we do rely on what we know. Humans tend to work well with patterns. Some folks do "dis" the CAGED system. I personally think it can be the basis for knowing your way around the fretboard. From the 5 shapes, you can build any possible chord. From the 5 shapes, you have 5 "box" forms for any scale you want to learn.

Using the CAGED system, in conjunction with knowing the fretboard, will prove very worthwhile in the long run. Of course, saying that, I realize and acknowledge that I could say that about several other systems too. Kirk Lorange's triad system in Plane Talk is also very good, and fits underneath the CAGED system, giving much flexibility.

There are many ways to group the guitar fretboard into patterns for easy access, and I believe the only way they are limiting is if you only know the patterns and not the fretboard itself.

Tony

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by stanron

There is a lot of talk here about the position of notes on the fretboard and their names. There is a third element that does not seem to be getting much attention and that is the sound of the notes. If you don't know the sound of the notes you play it could be argued that you are not actually playing music, you are just playing a sequence of notes or positions. For practising scales that's OK. If you are learning a solo guitar piece it's the standard way to start. If you are improvising you should know what notes will sound like before you play them.

I'm not talking about perfect pitch here I'm talking about relative pitch. Once you've played the root you will know the sound of the root. You should also know the sound of the third, even before you play it. You should know the sound of the fourth and the fifth. In fact you should know the sound of all the notes in the scale.

One more exercise, play a root note and then hum or imagine the sound of the scale. Think your way up to a note in the scale and then play it to check.

Pre-requisites for this exercise are a knowledge of a scale pattern and the ability to play it and hum or imagine it. Funnily enough the names of the notes don't really matter. They could come later.

To me, the sound of the notes comes with experience. Hearing every note as you find it around the fretboard. Hearing the relationship of the notes to each other as you practice your scales (assuming you are not just mindlessly running them up and down), and also when building chords, all these will train your ear IF you are paying attention while doing these things.

Perfect pitch seems to have controversy about whether it is a "some gots it, some don't" thing that we are born with, or whether it can be developed.

Relative pitch is generally recognized as a skill that anybody can develop. This is done through playing the instrument and paying attention to what we are doing. We can also do interval exercises designed specifically for that purpose. To me, the best and most fun way to develop good relative pitch is to learn music off of recordings by ear. This is a long time-honored approach by (especially) jazz musicians and guitarists of most styles, except maybe classical.

Tony

[polarred21]

Originally Posted by FwL

Speaking of paper. When I first decided to learn the fingerboard I thought it would be a good idea to draw a neck diagram with all the notes. That way I could just look at the diagram if I needed to find a note.

By the time I had all the notes filled in on the diagram, I realized that I didn't need the diagram anymore. I was already seeing the pattern of how notes lay out on the fingerboard.

A big revelation for me was seeing that the octave of any note is always sitting 2 strings over and 2 frets up.... unless you cross the B string. Everything moves up one fret when you cross the B string.

It was just a matter of days and I was starting to pick out other intervals and seeing how they're always sitting in the same locations as well.

I already new how to read pretty well from years of trumpet and baritone horn in school band, but your suggestion is a good one for somebody just learning.

I did this same thing by making a power point version myself as a learning exercise. My goal was to be able to highlight scale patterns to learn and save for reference. Starting from zero musical skills I learned a lot just by making this. It was only after I had completed 2 strings that realized I could copy and paste most of it to the others

If anyone wants the power point version just PM me your e-mail address.

[MC5C]

I sent this thread to a friend of mine who is doing her doctorate on this exact subject - why is it so hard to learn how to play guitar, in particular, why is it so hard to make the transition from playing guitar to playing well all over the neck in an intuitive manner. She likens it to playing jazz, which does demand that facility. She has a blog going about her research. I asked her today, in relation to this thread, "why is it so hard to learn the fretboard" and she said we (meaning the community of researchers who are actively trying to understand the cognitive side of the question) honestly don't know. By "learn the fretboard" I don't mean know the name of every string and every fret, I knew that 30 years ago. I mean internalize it so I intuitively know what note to play where, and understand it's relationship to key, chord, harmony, and melody. I can't do that worth squat...

https://thescientificguitarist.wordp...ach-to-guitar/

[rick-slo]

It is hard because it is complicated and in actual playing there is very little time to think. When you can organize into groups and patterns what at first seems almost chaotic it goes easier. Also for what most people play and even want to play there is a lack of need for in depth fretboard knowledge, and that leads to a lack of motivation, which leads to a lack of due diligence to study and practice.

[RodB]

I agree - patterns and shape give order to what seems complicated if not chaotic. For me the operative word here is 'seems' and this does put a lot of people off at the outset.

I read in this thread someone saying they have difficulty to even get the 1st position sorted. I think this can be a trap because moving away from the open strings allows us to recognise the repeatability of the shapes and patterns up the fretboard.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by MC5C

I sent this thread to a friend of mine who is doing her doctorate on this exact subject - why is it so hard to learn how to play guitar, in particular, why is it so hard to make the transition from playing guitar to playing well all over the neck in an intuitive manner. She likens it to playing jazz, which does demand that facility. She has a blog going about her research. I asked her today, in relation to this thread, "why is it so hard to learn the fretboard" and she said we (meaning the community of researchers who are actively trying to understand the cognitive side of the question) honestly don't know. By "learn the fretboard" I don't mean know the name of every string and every fret, I knew that 30 years ago. I mean internalize it so I intuitively know what note to play where, and understand it's relationship to key, chord, harmony, and melody. I can't do that worth squat...

https://thescientificguitarist.wordp...ach-to-guitar/

I have been teaching myself to play piano, not classical, but how to play pop tunes and similar as instrumental solos. I found that I could start doing that almost immediately on piano, and with satisfying results. It is relatively easy to do.

On the guitar, it is comparatively difficult to do, while simple strumming to accompany singing is quite easy, as the chord patterns and shapes lend themselves to that on guitar.

I tried an experiment that turned out rather interesting. I brought a CD by a very skilled classical guitar player, Edgar Cruz, to work one day and asked people what they thought of it. The CD contained solo renditions of pop and rock tunes by Aerosmith, Paul McCartney, Queen, and others. It is quite well done. To a person, they thought it was BORING, and they wanted to hear more going on.

I have done similar with a CD by Scott Davis, who plays solo instrumental arrangements of similar rock tunes piano. People loved it.

I would say that it depends on what kind of music one is trying to make on the guitar, with regard to its difficulty and also with what acceptance a diverse audience will have. For solo music, the piano seems to fare much better on both counts. On guitar, strumming to accompany singing, or playing simple screaming leads in front of a rock band seems to garner a decent and appreciative audience. For jazz, though there certainly have been well accepted guitar players, that realm seems to really belong to the piano (once again), and sax for the most part. Classical guitar has always been a kind if niche off the mainstream, rather than front and center as are the piano and violin, for example. Fingerstyle guitar seems to be similarly relegated to niche, with the occasional "breakout" such as Leo Kottke or TommyEmmanuel.

The guitar can be a difficult instrument to learn to play in many musical areas, but in others, it fares well and does not present nearly as much difficulty. Basic chord forms to accompany singing, and the pentatonic scale forms typically used in blues and rock, are rather easily learned and executed. From there, folks can become quite sophisticated by virtue of doing it a lot and building on what they already know. Blues and rock seem to have been really good areas for the guitar for quite a long time.

Tony

[rick-slo]

For example A7 with root note on fifth fret. Do you play it with chord notes in order, or do you invert the order to some degree, or do you even care about the theory around that? Building the chord one note at a time on different strings how long does it take?












Do you come up with say 5-4-2-0-x-x or 5-7-5-6-x-x or repeating some notes 5-7-5-6-5-5. The first is non transferable seventh chord shape, the second two are based on a useful seventh chord shape pattern you can use up and down the neck.

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

For example A7 with root note on fifth fret. Do you play it with chord notes in order, or do you invert the order to some degree, or do you even care about the theory around that? Building the chord one note at a time on different strings how long does it take?





Do you come up with say 5-4-2-0-x-x or 5-7-5-6-x-x or repeating some notes 5-7-5-6-5-5. The first is non transferable seventh chord shape, the second two are based on a useful seventh chord shape pattern you can use up and down the neck.

I am not sure if you are asking in general or of a specific previous poster. Anyway, here is my take on it. Knowing the notes on the fret board and how to spell chords, and also the basic shapes (CAGED, or whatever system of choice) and what the chord elements are in that shape, makes it easy to modify that shape to suit your needs.

The jazz players I have known personally or have read about in articles and interviews, all seem to have their own favorite libraries of "grips" (movable chord shapes). This implies to me that, over time, they have memorized their favorite chord forms and largely use those, modifying them as needed to get whatever specific sound or melody top note they need.

So to me, it is a combination of shapes and fretboard knowledge and very basic diatonic theory.

I got the impression from playing with some classically trained folks (piano mostly, as usual) that they tend to not think in chords, but rather they are quite good at reading what someone else has written out for them. It seemed like almost a foreign language when I started talking about what the chords were in whatever music we were playing. This leads me to believe that there are likely different orientations to one's instrument depending on whatever discipline the player came up in.

As to starting with a specific root note and then building the chord note by note, I have done that, and think there is a time and place for it. However, to me, all these skills combine into one package I would refer to as a "musician", rather than taking them out of context. All the skills are like tools in a toolbox. The more of these tools we have, the more flexible we can be in addressing any given situation. There is a lifetime of discovery in both learning the tools and putting them to use. Not every musician needs every tool. A person would likely learn and make use of whatever tools will help that person make the music s/he is interested in making.

Tony