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  #16  
Old 01-28-2016, 12:37 PM
Shoreline Music Shoreline Music is offline
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Originally Posted by Doubleneck View Post
Where are the guys that were at NAMM when you need them? Probably taking pics of pretty girls? Lol This does look interesting.
I was at NAMM. I spent quite a bit of time with James and the ToneDexters. I didn't take any pictures, but pictures ain't what this thing is about.

My initial impressions were very positive. Hall E was really loud this year—as loud as the main floor—so we could only use headphones. I really want to hear this thing through an amp or PA. But I'm not impressed easily, and I was impressed enough that I put my name on the list to be in their first batch of shipments.

I may put a listing up on our site, just to start collecting email signups and pre-orders. Check the shorelinemusic.com site in the next couple of weeks.

John
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  #17  
Old 01-28-2016, 05:05 PM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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Thanks John for your comments
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  #18  
Old 01-28-2016, 05:47 PM
kurth83 kurth83 is offline
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Pretty clear how it works, it depends on being able to mic a great guitar really well, and it will reproduce its acoustic tone nearly perfectly.

It doesn't have the ability to change an existing guitar's tone to something it isn't already, not sure that is a downside though.
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  #19  
Old 01-30-2016, 01:45 PM
Vancebo Vancebo is offline
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Originally Posted by James May View Post
ToneDexter works with just about all common guitar pickup technologies except magnetic and some peculiar piezo arrays that have some elements out of phase with other elements.

So yes, when I say piezo, I also mean sound board transducers like K&K. And, it works with micrphone pickups like Lyric and film type pickups such as B-Band.
Okay, maybe you can explain this to me. It doesn't make sense. Why would the source matter?
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  #20  
Old 01-30-2016, 02:06 PM
zhunter zhunter is offline
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I like this. There is already a version of this box that listens and learns guitar amp sounds to why not a box that models acoustics. But...

As I listen, I can help but think that the modeling built in to my AC3M Yamaha is accomplishing about the same thing for my needs (OK not as versatile) that the Tonedexter modeling rig did for less coin. And it comes with a guitar.

I can deal with modeling and something like this could be the future. I see no reason why not. But I have sure read a lot of anti-digital criticism about modeled (or imaged if you prefer) acoustic sounds. It remains to be seen if this technology is improved enough that it can win over those guys. And anything like this must be solid enough to make it in a live context. No freezes, data dumps, data errors, etc.

And again I do like the idea. Unfortunately many things like this wind up on the shelf of discarded toys worth about 0% of the initial cost in a few short years. I hope this one is different.

hunter
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  #21  
Old 01-30-2016, 03:30 PM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zhunter View Post
I like this. There is already a version of this box that listens and learns guitar amp sounds to why not a box that models acoustics. But...

As I listen, I can help but think that the modeling built in to my AC3M Yamaha is accomplishing about the same thing for my needs (OK not as versatile) that the Tonedexter modeling rig did for less coin. And it comes with a guitar.

I can deal with modeling and something like this could be the future. I see no reason why not. But I have sure read a lot of anti-digital criticism about modeled (or imaged if you prefer) acoustic sounds. It remains to be seen if this technology is improved enough that it can win over those guys. And anything like this must be solid enough to make it in a live context. No freezes, data dumps, data errors, etc.

And again I do like the idea. Unfortunately many things like this wind up on the shelf of discarded toys worth about 0% of the initial cost in a few short years. I hope this one is different.

hunter
The Fishman Aura technology is still going strong, so this one is very likely to do well also - not for every player, perhaps, but for many. For the folks who have a decent sounding guitar and a decent recording microphone, it is (at the very least) the do-it-yourself equivalent of sending your guitar off to Fishman to have custom Aura sound images made.

One could make the case that its better than Aura (with custom sound images) because you can use ToneDexter with SBTs and internal mics as well as USTs. That should make the tappers happy. (Making an internal mic sound like an external mic is a darn good trick in itself. I presume Tonedexter works with both Lyric AND Anthem.)

Last edited by guitaniac; 01-30-2016 at 04:12 PM.
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  #22  
Old 01-30-2016, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
The Fishman Aura technology is still going strong, so this one is very likely to do well also - not for every player, perhaps, but for many. For the folks who have a decent sounding guitar and a decent recording microphone, it is (at the very least) the do-it-yourself equivalent of sending your guitar off to Fishman to have custom Aura sound images made.

One could make the case that its better than Aura (with custom sound images) because you can use ToneDexter with SBTs and internal mics as well as USTs. That should make the tappers happy.
I like the Aura system and when I was shopping preamp equipped acoustics the Martin was a good performer for me. Price was king for that purchase and plugged in the Yahama got so close for my application, I couldn't justify the cost of the aura equipped Martin. It was technology in the Martin that got me to look at the Yamaha. And, in doing my reading research, I read a lot of complaints about the Aura too. Sounded fine to me so...

Yes the versatility of the Tonedexter is a winner. I am lucky to have found an imaging/modeling equipped guitar that met my needs for less cost. And in my case none of my other steel string acoustics have pickups so it would not help me to have modeling capability for them. I also play nylon string plugged and I believe this system works with nylon also. While my nylon sound could probably improve, I find the pickup system does a better job of producing a decent sound with nylon. The benefit would be less I suspect.

I hope it catches on and they sell enough to keep it alive. It would be nice if it worked with magnetic pickups since that was my solution prior to scoring the Yamaha. I wasn't crazy about the mag thing but it worked enough to get the job done.

hunter
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  #23  
Old 01-30-2016, 10:55 PM
kurth83 kurth83 is offline
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Originally Posted by Vancebo View Post
Okay, maybe you can explain this to me. It doesn't make sense. Why would the source matter?
What is does is compare the difference between what the mic generates vs the pickup and add that difference back in (or subtract as the EQ case may be).

So it depends on you plugging in a mic and your pickup at the same time.

It will then reproduce whatever you sent it in the mic when you use your pickup. So the quality of your micing will directly affect the patch it learns.

The clue for me was that it would not work with phase inverting pickups, it is analyzing waveforms during its learning process.

The actual calculations it does are way beyond me, but the concept seems simple enough at any rate.

The really wonderful thing about that, is if you have a favorite guitar that has the greatest most perfect sound IYHO, you can expect that exact sound to come out of a PA, pretty impressive.

What I didn't see in the demos is if it can compensate for different dynamics and tonal variations as you play, because the brightness (meaning waveforms) of strings changes with volume and playing technique. If it can't do that then it may end up sounding a bit lifeless. Time will tell.
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  #24  
Old 01-31-2016, 06:19 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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To muddy the waters a bit, here's a quote of designer James May from the previous ToneDexter thread.

"This is essentially correct, but I should add that feedback immunity is excellent in both cases (whether using an SBT or a UST). ToneDexter has some additional "extra special secret sauce" (translated - DSP processing magic) that fixes trouble spots likely to cause feedback. Sounding "exactly like the mic" would not cut it for moderate to loud situations."

Apparently, sounding exactly like your guitar being externally miked can be problematic (with respect to feedback) whether the signal is coming from an external mic or a digital processor.

On the plus side, what a great boon to SBT users this will be if ToneDexter can actually eliminate the extra feedback vulnerability of that particular pickup type.
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  #25  
Old 01-31-2016, 12:14 PM
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I guess I'll ask my question in a different way. Is this on the fly imaging? In a minutes time it analyzes your acoustic tone and makes adjustments to the plugged in signal to match. That's how I understand it. So my question is why should it matter if your running a magnetic, UST, or out of phase elements? It's Analyzing your sound not your system. Right?
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  #26  
Old 01-31-2016, 12:37 PM
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El Conquistador El Conquistador is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
Sounding "exactly like the mic" would not cut it for moderate to loud situations."
And there you have it.

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  #27  
Old 01-31-2016, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vancebo View Post
I guess I'll ask my question in a different way. Is this on the fly imaging? In a minutes time it analyzes your acoustic tone and makes adjustments to the plugged in signal to match. That's how I understand it. So my question is why should it matter if your running a magnetic, UST, or out of phase elements? It's Analyzing your sound not your system. Right?
Makes sense to me, I assume that's why it could do a banjo (and wow), or a mandolin as well as a guitar. We know now it likely notches the final tone to deal with feedback issues (I would prefer do my own notching, or at least turn it on and off), but we can hope all that doesn't prejudice it in favor of one kind of pickup over another.
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  #28  
Old 02-01-2016, 08:18 AM
zhunter zhunter is offline
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Makes sense to me, I assume that's why it could do a banjo (and wow), or a mandolin as well as a guitar. We know now it likely notches the final tone to deal with feedback issues (I would prefer do my own notching, or at least turn it on and off), but we can hope all that doesn't prejudice it in favor of one kind of pickup over another.
I have automatic feed back search and destroy on the Yamaha preamp and on a separate vocal preamp pedal and I really like it. On the vocal preamp, I normally just turn it on and leave it. In both cases I initiate it though. Now that I have seen it in action, I really wouldn't be bothered by an automatic feature. But, there is something reassuring about me being able to turn it off to hear what is happening.

hunter
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  #29  
Old 02-01-2016, 09:08 AM
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Originally Posted by guitaniac View Post
The Fishman Aura technology is still going strong, so this one is very likely to do well also - not for every player, perhaps, but for many. For the folks who have a decent sounding guitar and a decent recording microphone, it is (at the very least) the do-it-yourself equivalent of sending your guitar off to Fishman to have custom Aura sound images made.

One could make the case that its better than Aura (with custom sound images) because you can use ToneDexter with SBTs and internal mics as well as USTs. That should make the tappers happy. (Making an internal mic sound like an external mic is a darn good trick in itself. I presume Tonedexter works with both Lyric AND Anthem.)
Yes on all points, at the very least.
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  #30  
Old 02-01-2016, 09:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kurth83 View Post
What is does is compare the difference between what the mic generates vs the pickup and add that difference back in (or subtract as the EQ case may be).

So it depends on you plugging in a mic and your pickup at the same time.

It will then reproduce whatever you sent it in the mic when you use your pickup. So the quality of your micing will directly affect the patch it learns.

The clue for me was that it would not work with phase inverting pickups, it is analyzing waveforms during its learning process.

The actual calculations it does are way beyond me, but the concept seems simple enough at any rate.

The really wonderful thing about that, is if you have a favorite guitar that has the greatest most perfect sound IYHO, you can expect that exact sound to come out of a PA, pretty impressive.

What I didn't see in the demos is if it can compensate for different dynamics and tonal variations as you play, because the brightness (meaning waveforms) of strings changes with volume and playing technique. If it can't do that then it may end up sounding a bit lifeless. Time will tell.
Well comprehended. The changes in timbre that occur due to playing style, attack, dynamics, etc. will come through ToneDexter as you would hope. If the mic and your ears hear them, they will essentially be there.
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