Tuning MADNESS!!

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by pok3rpl8yer

First off, thank all of you for your replies.

Well, I am hoping all of this will be educational for me. I sure learned something late last night. Or maybe I didn't?

After literally having spent 5 - 6 playing around on the Ovation that I ended up selling, and then having the same problems last night with the Fender Royal Tone, I decided it might be just me getting old. So I put down the guitar and reached for my Ovation Applause AA-21-5. Literally 60 or so seconds later I am strumming chords all over the neck and it sounds great. I then sit and pluck the e and compare it to where the Fishman tuners on the Royal Tone is and it is almost a half step different.

What does this mean?

So I then try to tune the Royal Tone to the slightly lower tuning of the Applause........guess what? Spot on. WTF? What am I to believe?

Fishman built in tuner is wrong? I am crazy and my ears are failing me or are there other forces at work here about A440 being a whacky tuning for acoustics?

It is very possible that when you tune down a half step, with the strings more slack there will be less stretch when fretted. If it is just the nut that's high, you could still play close to in tune around the 12th fret but sharp near the nut.

If you feel the action is fine you can try changing strings, make sure your nut slots are shaped correctly... if that fails you may want to look into a compensated nut...

[gpj1136]

Originally Posted by Ned Milburn

Did you confirm yet if your nut slots are correct or too high, and if your saddles are correctly positioned.??

I have this problem on any guitar, although it is intermittent. It has to do with what type of scale I'm playing, and even how I'm feeling. I have to fiddle with tuning for different types of music. especially if changing from major to minor. Always involving the B string. If I tune so the second string sounds correct at open string B, then the intonation will be off for a fretted note on the second string.

While sometimes it won't bother me at all.

[Frank Ford]

Originally Posted by gpj1136

I have to fiddle with tuning for different types of music. especially if changing from major to minor. Always involving the B string. If I tune so the second string sounds correct at open string B, then the intonation will be off for a fretted note on the second string.

While sometimes it won't bother me at all.

Well, that sounds perfectly normal to me.

We all hate the B string. . .

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by gpj1136

I have this problem on any guitar, although it is intermittent. It has to do with what type of scale I'm playing, and even how I'm feeling. I have to fiddle with tuning for different types of music. especially if changing from major to minor. Always involving the B string. If I tune so the second string sounds correct at open string B, then the intonation will be off for a fretted note on the second string.

While sometimes it won't bother me at all.

But still you haven't answered the questions - did you check if the nut is cut down properly? This is the most common reason for guitars to intonate poorly in open positions.

Another poster touched on the difference between even temperment and true temperment. True temperment is impossible for all practical purposes on a guitar, since in a naturally occurring major scale (ie: a scale based upon the naturally occurring harmonic series), the major 3rd note is flatter than a piano or guitar sounds it, and a natural major 7th interval (leading tone) is higher in pitch than a piano or guitar can sound it. "Stringed" instrumentalists (ie: fiddles, viols, etc - the guitar is percussion, not "strings" in the orchestral sense), wind instrumentalists, and vocalists will naturally adjust their intonation depending upon the key in which they are playing and the chord tone they are playing. So, they will naturally play a true leading tone when possible, for example. We guitarists are stuck with well or even temperment.

That said, if you tune by ear, you can tune from low E to G, then tune the high E and B strings off of the harmonic from the low E string.

Also, CHECK your nut slots. Perfect pitch or not, this will really mess with the head of ANYONE with ears sensitive to tuning. MOST guitars are NOT set up with nut slots cut to the proper guitar from the factory, and MOST music stores do not fine tune the nut slots before selling the guitar. Hence, MOST guitars are going to drive sensitive-eared people nuts with tuning, especially for lower position chords mixing open and fretted notes.

Again, knowing if the saddle has been placed properly will be important. Many guitars, even expensive hand made guitars, sometimes have saddles placed in the wrong position. (I just had one by a reknowned builder in my shop which had its saddle placed about 1.5mm too close to the neck, meaning it would NEVER intonate properly.)

The E chord will sound as if the B is low if the nut is high because the fretted G#, fretted E, and fretted B will be higher in pitch than the correct well tempered notes. And remember, as I wrote above, the G#, being the Major 3rd interval of a major scale, will sound sharp compared to the natural sounding major 3rd which guitarists cannot produce without pulling a fretted note flat.

[pok3rpl8yer]

So yes I did check everything and every option. Today I brought the guitar back to the store where I bought it and they tried to talk about repairs as if that was the only option. But I stalled and asked a lot of questions about distributors and Fender policies. They finally caved and said they would send it back to Fender and replace it. I told them I didn't want another one and we finally agreed on a replacement of equal value or I could pay the difference to move up. The guitar I chose was a Guild D-125 and I had to pay $108 extra.

The Fender Royal Tone is equally the prettiest and worst guitar I have ever been involved with.

The problems with the guitar were immense and not what one might expect to see in 2014 from any country. I think it was a parts bin guitar made to clear inventory of old stock. The tuners were str8 out of 1979 China. Intonation was the least of the problems. I don't know enough about guitars to describe what caused the problems which made me start this thread, but there was a discernable feedback type of drone after hitting open notes. Keep in mind this is unplugged. The sustain, on an all Laminate guitar was curiously long, but horribly filled with a wah wah wah sound which I have never heard before.

The Guild is worldly a different beast. All solid. All tone. And was my first choice originally. I was set to buy it but fell in love with the Royal Tone looks and assumed it would be as decent as the CD and CDE series of guitars from Fender....which are, for any expensive guitars only snobs, very capable guitars for the most part. But it wasn't. It was more equivalent to the guitar in your grandmothers attic which wasn't any good 20 years earlier when it was new.

Sorry for the length, but I gave Fender a chance because of the quality of some of the CD guitars being fantastic value, and they seemingly knowingly dumped a pile of wood and strings and sold it for good money.

As far as the all laminates goes, the Fender CD-60CE is an outstanding player which I referred to as a point of reference. I rarely plug in, but if I did I was expecting to have similar tone and playability to the CD-60CE and cool looks as well to add a bit of bling to the collection.

Its all done now. My other guitars have since had a sting change and a truss rod adjustment to compensate for this change in season and are awesome again. The cheap Ovation Applause didn't need and attention and never has. Just a tone beast......which unfortunately is too quiet for anyone to hear.

Special thanks for all of your input. For those of you who think you need to spend a lot of money on a guitar I say this.......only if you got it. The Tanglewood TW40 D VS is as fine of an acoustic guitar as any at any price. You might think money bought you some kind of godly creation, but if built right, a Chinese guitar, designed specifically by Michael Sanden for the Historic Series, can be as good as any. And at a 10th of the price. Well maybe an 8th

[LouieAtienza]

Originally Posted by pok3rpl8yer

So yes I did check everything and every option. Today I brought the guitar back to the store where I bought it and they tried to talk about repairs as if that was the only option. But I stalled and asked a lot of questions about distributors and Fender policies. They finally caved and said they would send it back to Fender and replace it. I told them I didn't want another one and we finally agreed on a replacement of equal value or I could pay the difference to move up. The guitar I chose was a Guild D-125 and I had to pay $108 extra.

The Fender Royal Tone is equally the prettiest and worst guitar I have ever been involved with.

The problems with the guitar were immense and not what one might expect to see in 2014 from any country. I think it was a parts bin guitar made to clear inventory of old stock. The tuners were str8 out of 1979 China. Intonation was the least of the problems. I don't know enough about guitars to describe what caused the problems which made me start this thread, but there was a discernable feedback type of drone after hitting open notes. Keep in mind this is unplugged. The sustain, on an all Laminate guitar was curiously long, but horribly filled with a wah wah wah sound which I have never heard before.

The Guild is worldly a different beast. All solid. All tone. And was my first choice originally. I was set to buy it but fell in love with the Royal Tone looks and assumed it would be as decent as the CD and CDE series of guitars from Fender....which are, for any expensive guitars only snobs, very capable guitars for the most part. But it wasn't. It was more equivalent to the guitar in your grandmothers attic which wasn't any good 20 years earlier when it was new.

Sorry for the length, but I gave Fender a chance because of the quality of some of the CD guitars being fantastic value, and they seemingly knowingly dumped a pile of wood and strings and sold it for good money.

As far as the all laminates goes, the Fender CD-60CE is an outstanding player which I referred to as a point of reference. I rarely plug in, but if I did I was expecting to have similar tone and playability to the CD-60CE and cool looks as well to add a bit of bling to the collection.

Its all done now. My other guitars have since had a sting change and a truss rod adjustment to compensate for this change in season and are awesome again. The cheap Ovation Applause didn't need and attention and never has. Just a tone beast......which unfortunately is too quiet for anyone to hear.

Special thanks for all of your input. For those of you who think you need to spend a lot of money on a guitar I say this.......only if you got it. The Tanglewood TW40 D VS is as fine of an acoustic guitar as any at any price. You might think money bought you some kind of godly creation, but if built right, a Chinese guitar, designed specifically by Michael Sanden for the Historic Series, can be as good as any. And at a 10th of the price. Well maybe an 8th

Good to hear you got it resolved. It just happens that any company can spew a dud or two. The quality of imports today are way higher than in the past

Weird about the Fender. Fender owns Guild and they both might be made in the same factory. It's normally agreed the top is the main producer of "tone" so at the least with imports I'd look for a solid top.

[pok3rpl8yer]

Yeah, I went with all solid with the Guild. As far as duds go..... I agree there are duds, but I think, based on the really horrible and dated tuners that this was a parts bin guitar. But honestly, I don't know anything. It is just my interpretation.

Another thought suggested by the retailer is that because it was a Signature Model, Wayne Kramer himself selected the tuners.....which in the end were the most important factor in causing problems.

[gpj1136]

[QUOTE=Ned Milburn;4225902]But still you haven't answered the questions - did you check if the nut is cut down properly? This is the most common reason for guitars to intonate poorly in open positions.


As I said this is with any guitar.

Frank, That was the point I was trying to make. It seems perfectly normal to me also. It is something that has always been a problem for me and was finally explained to me by Howard Klepper. Now I can just deal with it, relax, and play the guitar instead of trying to fix the unfixable.

It sounds like this might be the same for the OP.

[Psalad]

Originally Posted by pok3rpl8yer

Hmmmm......

Okay, so I tune the guitar to the Fishman green lights. Strum an E chord and the b sounds flat. Strum a G and the g, b and high e all are sounding out of tune.

When you press down on the strings nearer to the nut, it changes the pitch because of the distance you are pressing.

The earvana nut is designed to compensate for it to a degree. There are other compensated nut products out there as well. This might be what you're taking about?

http://www.earvana.com/technology-1.html

I have no financial interest in the company, but I think I like what it does. I haven't measured it so it's possible it's placebo effect. I don't have perfect pitch. I'm curious as all getout if it makes a difference for you.

[pok3rpl8yer]

If I am to be 100% honest, the guitar had to go. It was not up to par with a lot of what can be found, even for $200. It was a bling guitar only. Like I noted, the exceptional volume and sustain was odd. I will find out more tomorrow because the head luthier will be in to make sure that it was not some or one of the problems many of you guys have discussed. If it is a simple fix and lives up to its potential I may have to keep it and pay outright for the Guild. But the sales guy said he thought the tuners would have to actually be replaced. As a brand new guitar I should not have to keep a special order guitar which is delivered broken. Either way, the Guild will more than make me happy for now.

Worst case scenario? The luthier discovers a quick fix and I keep both guitars. The Fender, if fixed would be a decent A/E and good looking addition to an ever growing collection. Had four when I started this thread and now have 7 or 8 if they somehow make the guitar work without any structural work. Replacing tuners may not be the end of the world, but on a BRAND NEW guitar it would seem pretty unfair.

I kind of hope I never see the guitar again.