Taylor Truss Rod Issues

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by nosckaj123

...Any advice on what might be wrong with the guitar is helpful. Hopefully the truss rod isn't broken because that would be terrible

Hi nosckaj...

I just had my Olson on my luthier's bench because the truss rod was becoming very hard to turn/adjust, and I didn't want to damage anything. James Olson's guitars have a similar adjustment at the headstock as Taylors.

My luthier conjectured that with 20 years of compacting against the end of the neck, the pressure had locked the nut and washer together, and wood compression accounted for the extra rod sticking out.

He disassembled it removing the nut/washer, separated the washer (and filed the inside of the washer a bit), added a second washer so less thread is showing, lubricated it, replaced the nut and it's all working just fine.

Amazing what 20 minutes in the hands of an expert can do for a guitar. Now it works like butter.

He also handed me a standard single acting truss rod and explained how they work and he should know since he builds guitars with them.

It really looks to me like the threads on yours need to be cleaned up (or recut), then perhaps a similar procedure done with yours as was done for mine.

Hope you get it sorted.

[Glen DeRusha]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi nosckaj...

I just had my Olson on my luthier's bench because the truss rod was becoming very hard to turn/adjust, and I didn't want to damage anything. James Olson's guitars have a similar adjustment at the headstock as Taylors.

My luthier conjectured that with 20 years of compacting against the end of the neck, the pressure had locked the nut and washer together, and wood compression accounted for the extra rod sticking out.
He disassembled it removing the nut/washer, separated the washer (and filed the inside of the washer a bit), added a second washer so less thread is showing, lubricated it, replaced the nut and it's all working just fine.

Amazing what 20 minutes in the hands of an expert can do for a guitar. Now it works like butter.

He also handed me a standard single acting truss rod and explained how they work and he should know since he builds guitars with them.

It really looks to me like the threads on yours need to be cleaned up (or recut), then perhaps a similar procedure done with yours as was done for mine.

Hope you get it sorted.

"and wood compression accounted for the extra rod sticking out."

Very well could be. One doesn't always have to build guitars with standard, single acting truss rods to know how they work. Did he also mention that the method that he used is not always an option? And it doesn't always work? And did he mention what plan "B" would be?

Sounds like the rod in your Olson is kind of sketchy. Wouldn't you feel better if you could slide the rod out right now, fix it, or slide in a new one? And you don't have to be an expert to do it? An EX, ain't nothing but a has been. And a spurt ain't nothing but a big drip under pressure. I thought that we were all "wanna' be masters" in training.

Updated price list.

1. Peel off a fingerboard, fix rod, put back together with minimum or no finish touch up. And there probably will be some cosmetic damage. $550.00

2. Peel off a fingerboard with binding, fix rod, put back together with minimum or no finish touch up. And there probably will be some cosmetic damage. $1100.00.

3. Peel off a fingerboard off of a $10K Olson, or guitar of similar quality. $2,500.00. If the finish on it is nitro or varnish, like Bruce Sexaur uses, we will do everything in our power, and then some, to touch up the finish and make it look like it never happened. But if it has the new poly type finish where the touch up finish won't burn in to the old finish, leaving witness lines and all of that, your on your own with the finish touch up. And it is still $2,500.00.

4. Compression fret the neck? If it's an option. Maybe the Martin's from the 70's with no truss rods in them is not as bad an idea as some people try to make it out to be? $unknown?

Right now I am fixing a truss rod in a Squire bass. I guess you really have to love your Squire bass to put that kind of money into it.

If I was going to have someone bust apart my Olson guitar to fix the guts in it, I would be looking for quality of work as opossed to who can do it the cheapest. I would probably start out by taking it to the vet and have a couple of X-rays taken of the neck, to see what is going on in there, before I would let anybody touch it. And even then I would get a 2nd or 3rd opinion.

It is nice to have options?

Glen

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Glen DeRusha

"and wood compression accounted for the extra rod sticking out."

Very well could be. One doesn't always have to build guitars with standard, single acting truss rods to know how they work. Did he also mention that the method that he used is not always an option? And it doesn't always work? And did he mention what plan "B" would be?

Hi Glen...
You are certainly making it bigger than it was. Of course if he's conjecturing then all guitars might not have this issue. The fact I had extra rod sticking out above the nut, and it was very hard to turn, and the washer was stuck to the nut were the clues he needed to fix it. The thread reminded me of my situation very closely. I simply saw similarities in our situations and offered a story.

I never mentioned compression frets. Don't understand where that came from.

The luthier said that the nut on the truss rod as it was tightened over the past 20 years had likely compressed the wood at the end of the neck accounting for more rod sticking out.

The washer was stuck to the nut and causing it to bind.

He disassembled it, lubricated the nut, added a washer, changed the nut (the nut on the truss rod), and fixed it while we were chatting about families, and while I was playing one of his guitars which is fresh off the bench, and he charged me $20.

No talk of X-rays or cat scans, no suggestion of peeling the fingerboard off the neck. I was actually there to talk about my retirement strategy for maintaining my guitars. I thought my problem with a bit-o-buzz at the 2nd fret was a fret issue, and when he fixed the truss rod, and set it properly, the buzz was fixed as well.

I left his shop a happy camper.

[Glen DeRusha]

Some don't have that kind of luck and head for plan B. Just discussing some plan B options. Maybe someone will find them usefull someday before someone does something "rash" to a nice guitar and looks back on it and says, "Boy, I wish I wouldn't have done that.". In some cases compression fretting could be a better way to go, then peeling.

Glen

[John Arnold]

You can have the nut access at the head stock, or through the sound hole.

Putting it at the soundhole does make it a bit harder to slide out without first removing the neck

I have never seen a Martin truss rod not work. John? Have you?

Not that I can recall. However, Martin did not have adjustable truss rods until 1985.

And is the rumor true that Martin is changing their truss rod design?

Martin changed from the single action rod in a square aluminum channel to the dual action double rod about five years ago.
I am a big fan of the aluminum channel, because it reduces the compression on the neck. There is no chance of the washer or anchor burying in the neck...always a concern with mahogany.

since I've done it twice, I know it's not a simple operation,
and I cannot imagine ANYONE doing it in an hour!

Doing it over 100 times results in some degree of proficiency.
I just replaced the square tube in a 1974 D-28 with the Martin aluminum channel rod, and it took me an hour, including touchup with CA.
The guys at Martin set a dovetail neck in about 15 minutes. I have done over 1300 resets, and I am coming pretty close to that level of proficiency.

I wouldn't trust Loctite to anchor a truss rod. It won't hold.

Read my post again. I use red Loctite:

http://www.loctiteproducts.com/p/t_l...er-Red-271.htm

I also brad the end of the rod after threading it on the anchor. Gibson used the same system, minus the Loctite. The anchor is a section of 3/8" diameter round rod with a threaded cross hole.
As I said before, I have used this style of rod since the late-1970's, and have not had one failure. I probably have made over 150 of them.

I haven't checked up on Loctite colours, so most probably Red is the so-called permanent one. But how permanent is 'permanent' when a lot of torque is applied? That's the question. I'm not being definitive here, merely asking the question, is Loctite - a substance used to enable nuts to be taken apart - strong enough to withstand truss rod adjustment torque levels. Maybe the Red stuff is. I've got my doubts.

With properly functioning threads, there should be very little torque applied to the rod itself. Tightening the nut should stretch the rod, not twist it.
That is why the first thing I do when the rod is hard to turn is to lubricate the threads.

He disassembled it removing the nut/washer, separated the washer (and filed the inside of the washer a bit), added a second washer so less thread is showing, lubricated it, replaced the nut and it's all working just fine.

The problem with burying the washer in the wood is that it often produces a less-than-square surface, which can cause the nut to bind when tightened. If the washer is too thin, it can dish in the center once the wood compresses. The end of the rod can also bend, making it more likely to break. There is a stress riser where the threads transition to the plain rod, and this should be at least 3 diameters away from the washer to reduce the chance of breakage. Rolled threads are stronger than cut threads, and are used on the genuine Martin rods.

[Glen DeRusha]

Originally Posted by nosckaj123

So I have a 5 year old Taylor GS5 that I bought very lightly used around 5 years ago. Everything about the guitar is setup nicely and it plays nicely but I'm beginning to have some issues with the truss rod.

I recently put new strings on it and noticed the neck didn't have enough relief so I went ahead and loosened the truss rod. After turning the nut I realized that the actual truss rod itself had turned slightly before the nut actually began to turn (I know the rod turned because a while back I had a taylor luthier file down the end of the threads of the rod because they were sticking up above the surface of the headstock and my truss rod cover wasn't sitting properly).

Also, after having the guitar for 5 years I gradually began to notice a crack forming between the nut and the base of the truss rod opening (see picture). The truss rod has always been difficult to turn ever since I got it and I am worried that time has finally taken its toll and this guitar has some serious issues.



Any advice on what might be wrong with the guitar is helpful. Hopefully the truss rod isn't broken because that would be terrible

nosckaj123?

Are you still with us? When you changed strings did you go heavier? When you slacken the strings does the neck back bow? Never do neck bends on a guitar that you want to keep. Never try to tighten, or loosen, the truss rod with tension on the strings.

"a while back I had a taylor luthier file down the end of the threads of the rod"

There might be a clue in the above quoted line that might help figure out what is wrong with it. We need to know what kind of truss rod design Taylor was using that day. Did you get a response back from them?

Glen

[John Arnold]

We need to know what kind of truss rod design Taylor was using that day.

Taylor has always used a simple compression rod.
It is straight, not concave up as Gibson has used.

[Glen DeRusha]

Originally Posted by nosckaj123

So I have a 5 year old Taylor GS5 that I bought very lightly used around 5 years ago. Everything about the guitar is setup nicely and it plays nicely but I'm beginning to have some issues with the truss rod.

I recently put new strings on it and noticed the neck didn't have enough relief so I went ahead and loosened the truss rod. After turning the nut I realized that the actual truss rod itself had turned slightly before the nut actually began to turn (I know the rod turned because a while back I had a taylor luthier file down the end of the threads of the rod because they were sticking up above the surface of the headstock and my truss rod cover wasn't sitting properly).Also, after having the guitar for 5 years I gradually began to notice a crack forming between the nut and the base of the truss rod opening (see picture). The truss rod has always been difficult to turn ever since I got it and I am worried that time has finally taken its toll and this guitar has some serious issues.



Any advice on what might be wrong with the guitar is helpful. Hopefully the truss rod isn't broken because that would be terrible

"Taylor has always used a simple compression rod."

Still don't have enough info to know what to start meddling with first.


"The truss rod has always been difficult to turn ever since I got it"

Why? Is there a piece of broken thread wedged in between the nut and the rod? The rod is probably not threaded all the way from the nut to the heel. With that kind of nut, you probably can only thread it so far onto the rod before it runs out of threads and bottoms out, and gets siezed onto the rod. Then you won't be able to turn it on or off.

This part is interesting.

" After turning the nut I realized that the actual truss rod itself had turned slightly before the nut actually began to turn"

Turning it which way? Lefty loosy? Or righty tighty? If the rod was broken off inside, it should pull right out? If the rod is turning, it might be threaded into something down by the heel? Right handed threads? Or left handed threads?

And since this rod has a history of backing out so you can't get the cover back on? It may be backed out far enough in the threads by the heel that half a turn, one way or the other, it will become totally unthreaded and you should be able to pull the rod out? And then if you can't get it threaded back into what it came out of, you have just rendered the whole guitar useless?

Never tighten or loosen a truss rod with tension on the strings.

Find out from Taylor how the rod is suppose to be hooked in up by the heel?

X-ray the heel to see what is in there?

If you were real brave? You could double nut the end of the rod so it doesn't turn while you back off the truss rod nut? And then using the double nuts turn the rod, left or right?, to see if it threads back into what it is unthreading from up by the heel? If that is what really is happening up in there?

Of course double nutting the end of the rod ain't gonna' be so easy now because, someone buggered up all of the threads by filing on them. "Oh boy! I sure wish someone wouldn't have done that!"
And it makes it harder to take the truss rod nut off to clean out any broken threads or what ever to make it turn easier.

"the neck didn't have enough relief"

So it is back bowed and the truss rod is already to tight? Why are you trying to make it tighter?

This doesn't look like a dual acting rod. But I have seen someone do the lefty loosy on a dual acting rod and they couldn't figure out "why" the back bow kept getting worse the more they kept twisting on it.

If the problem is down by the heel and your option to fix it is to peel the fingerboard off, you can peel the fingerboard back just enough to fix what you need to and put it back. Taking the board all the way off can lead to other issues. If the board shrunk more then the neck wood, when you put it back it leaves a ridge up both sides. Same if the neck shrunk more then the board. Heating up the board to take it off? Can dry it out and make it shrink? And it comes off looking like a curled up potato chip. And then you have to start pulling frets to add registration pins to keep that warped, twisted thing lined up with the neck wood to glue it back on. No binding so you chipped the finish pulling those frets out, and then you get to fix that too. And what about those inlays? How much heat does it take before those start to melt and they disappear in a puff of smoke?

Don't mean to sound all gloom and doom but, that's a good day. It actually gets worse. With all of these new builders popping up, some of them use epoxy to stick the fingerboard to the neck. Some teach their students to do it that way. Which takes a lot more heat to get it off. And if the board has a lot of run out in it, it can come off in 380 pieces instead of 1. You can reuse the inlays for the replacement board. If they were put in with a glue that disolves in water. If they were put in with epoxy? Well? Or you can cut the board off with a bone saw. Which works pretty good. Until you start hitting metal registration pins.

But how often are you going to have to peel a fingerboard off of a guitar? Probably not very often. If you are going to do a neck re-set on one of Ervin Somogyi's steel string guitars, you have to peel the fingerboard off of it just to get started.

Don't mind me. I'm just rambling. Sorry for the highjack. It would be nice if we could get this sorted out without costing someone any more money?

Glen

[John Arnold]

Still don't have enough info to know what to start meddling with first.

If you have any more questions, I probably can answer them. I thought 'simple compression rod' pretty much explains the system. There are no lefthand threads, and the rod should not turn at all. The rod is straight, and set deeply in the neck.

I'm just rambling.

I would agree.
Since the rod is still functional, after lubricating the threads, my main area of concern is the crack. I usually wick in thin CA to repair those. The compression of the wood can be resolved by removing the nut (if possible) and adding in a piece of hard wood as a spacer underneath the washer. This is glued in place, and care is taken so that the bearing surface is square with the rod.
It may be necessary to cut some off the end of the rod in order to have clean threads to completely remove the nut.

[Glen DeRusha]

[QUOTE=John Arnold;3291394]If you have any more questions, I probably can answer them. I thought 'simple compression rod' pretty much explains the system. There are no lefthand threads, and the rod should not turn at all. The rod is straight, and set deeply in the neck.

QUOTE]

I have lots of questions and I doubt anybody can answer them.

'simple compression rod'

That pretty much explains the system but, it doesn't tell me what "exactly" is inside that neck. How many more turns can you get on that nut before it runs out of threads?

On the rods that I make, you can get 4 or 5 full turns on the nut before it bottoms out. I use the LMI nuts. Of course I might change and use something else someday. And then it might be different.

"There are no lefthand threads,"

Well actually, you are wrong about that. Carvin has been known to use left handed threads in theirs. I know that for a fact because, I have been inside of a couple of their necks and have seen them. That's no guarantee that they use lefties on all of them though.

What has been known to happen sometimes is, parts get made wrong. Wrong parts are shipped. New designs are tried. Sometimes the new designs don't work and the left over parts are canabalized for use with a different design. If you get the wrong parts and it is going to take 2 weeks to get the correct parts, and you are out of correct parts but, you can make the wrong parts work,? Are you going to shut down the plant for 2 weeks waiting for the correct parts? Or use what ya' got and keep production rolling? Just because the spec book, or blue print, says that you are suppose to get one thing is no guarantee that that, is what you are going to get. Always expect the unexpected.

"the rod should not turn at all."

One could assume that. But apparantly this one is. Things happen. Welds break. Things that are suppose to be welded are not. Pinning does not always work forever. Loctite does not always hold forever. There could have been a disgruntled employee trying to sabatage the company that day. The rod could be welded to a little square of steel that is spinning inside of there. You don't know what is going on inside of that neck. Bob probably doesn't know.

If I was going to take an X-ray of the neck, I would probably take a shot from the front or the back. Does this one have the metal bars epoxied into the neck on edge? Or did Bob stop doing that? Or was it a missing parts and disgruntled employee day?

I would probably just grab the end of the rod with a pair of pliers and see if it threads back in, or just spins. And then going from there, hold the rod with the pliers and set the nut where ya' need it.

Glen

[John Arnold]

Total waste of my time.

[steveyam]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

My luthier conjectured that with 20 years of compacting against the end of the neck, the pressure had locked the nut and washer together, and wood compression accounted for the extra rod sticking out.

In engineering terms, pressure and time alone are unlikely to lock a clean, metal nut and bolt together. Even though it may not be obvious upon examination, there'll be corrosion of some sort going on there, almost certainly. Corrosion, not pressure is the cause of the problem.

"Wood compression accounted for the extra rod sticking out". Can't be anything else can it really? That bottom end of the truss rod had to go somewhere, and being as the adjustment end of the truss rod has pulled up out of its pocket, then compression of the wood had to take place as the whole rod moved upwards. If it had broken, then that too would have been (even more) obvious.

Not trying to be 'funny' Larry, but your luthier's first conjecture was kinda wrong on the basis of being (at least) incomplete, and the second part is blindingly obvious to anyone with even a basic knowledge of how a truss rod works.

[Glen DeRusha]

"Wood compression accounted for the extra rod sticking out". Can't be anything else can it really?"

Well actually it can be. Larry's guy probably conjectured because he is real smart. Probably wouldn't claim to be if you asked him but, he probably is.

Wood compression up to a point. And then when the hook on the end of the rod starts to unbend and starts pulling through the truss rod slot? And there you go. You can tighten up the nut until you run out of threads. The first fingerboard that I peeled off had the hook system. Wood compression first and then the hook straightened out.

Would I use the hook system. The system that Siminoff uses on his mandolins in his how to build a mandolin book. Sure I would. But I would heat treat that end of the rod after I made the bend. And you could make it so that it is removable and replaceable. With or without taking the neck off. But I haven't figured out yet how to do it without having access to the nut at the headstock.

Rick Turner uses the hook system on his Howe and Orme style neck attatchment. You have seen those truss rods? If you are going to drill a hole in one of Rick's necks for a strap button, you might want to find out what is in there first or you might be in for a big surprise.

Glen

[badbazil]

Dude, it's a Taylor with a lifetime warranty. It's a warranty issue call Taylor and send it to them and they will fix it. You don't need to know how to make truss
rods or about Locktite. You to know Taylos Customer Service number.

[JRB]

When I replaced a Taylor neck for a customer, it cost roughly $175. Probably more for "retail," though. Definitely the easiest solution.