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#46
02-21-2013, 07:17 PM
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#47
02-21-2013, 08:20 PM
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__________________
A Lefty and proud of it! 2011 57 Reissue Vintage American Stratocaster Lefty 2011 Martin OM28V L 2010 Takamine EG340CH (JUNK) 2013 Seagull S12 Lefty
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#48
02-21-2013, 09:58 PM
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Grunge dont need no tone. You just gotta learn to yawrl....
Def: Yawrling...singing with your lower jaw extended, think Eddy Vedder...
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#49
02-22-2013, 04:48 AM
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In my guitar travels have come to some conclusions, a few of them recently.
For a start, let me change models on my "desert island," one-guitar-only guitar from the Tele to the Strat...most of this coming out of some recent recording I've done with vocals...and listening to recordings from several decades across genres. IMO, compared to the Tele, the Strat is an overall better guitar design and an overall better guitar. It is an overall “better guitar” not because of its versatility but because of its compression. While the Tele is invariably linked to the Les Paul, the LP actually has more in common with a Strat in musical terms functionally, in a musical context. The LPs tonal homolog to the Strat's compression is the attenuation of frequencies inherent with humbuckers. The middle pup position on an LP and a Tele (modern wiring) have very little in common functionally (clean) IMO because you never quite lose the Tele bridge. The Strat and the LP "sound nothing alike," but IMO they function musically in similar ways. The Tele, because of its timbre voice (not twang or treble) despite being associated with “cutting though” always, even in minimalistic applications, “sits ON the mix” really...that's how I hear them, even in something like The Police, The Pretnders...and even in Merle Haggard. It’s insistence on saturated fundamentals makes it unlike any other guitar…or even an actual pedal steel. This is true even in the middle position. It is a guitar design, that seems to “know about itself” the most. And yes, it does indeed start in that Tele bridge pup/bridge which cannot be separated...except if you enjoy the clang of modern Teles...usually chorused in the 80s... Tele playing is invariably "playing by the Tele’s rules" and “about the Tele.” LPs and Strats and practically any other guitar design are about themselves and the music much more so IMO because of either compression OR some measure of self-contained attentuation which functions IMO as a kind of relational component in music. Leo Fender didn’t get it right the first time. He got that right. Though more “complex” in design, the Strat is actually an easier guitar to copy than a Tele at every price point. I used to think the opposite. It’s complexity allows for greater variance really and because tonally the Strat is more unified...esp. with regard to compression. And it can pull off moderate output ceramic pups IMO better than a Tele...to achieve its goals...not with the same level of refinement...but easier to get at pretty good "glass," "quack" etc...the "warm treble" Arlin Roth refers to ina Tele, Nocaster is much more elusive...BECAUSE it's simpler. Did this thread give me a new appreciation for the Strat and the Strat design? Yes. I'm not going to say the Squier has better "glass" than the American...but really a 50's Strat with lower output alnicos has better "glass" than an American Standard Strat or a 62 Reissue...and there's quite a range of "Strat" that's quite pleasing, usable...not simply from a lo-fi perspective. If you take Keith Richards out of the equation and the use of prop Teles in country music, the Tele is no more popular or influential than the SG. The notion that the Tele is a “guitarist guitar” is an absurdity since no guitar design makes a limited player banging away sound “bigger” more "dangerous" than a Tele. Appropriately, the Tele has become the guitar of choice for backslappers. Check out the Tele forum or threads of Strats vs. Teles...BTW, palm muting is quite easy to learn...the least gimmicky aspect of "Tele playing." One of the hallmarks of a “great guitar design” is that it makes the accomplishment of musical goals…easier. It doesn't get billed as "the most unforgiving guitar." This is what motivated Segovia to seek Hauser…not to make a classical guitar more difficult or challenging to play. The notion that the Strat is feminine guitar while the Tele is masculine is also an absurdity. The Tele is also a woman, essentially a witch who is alternately pleased by the most rudimentary guitar playing OR…demands mastery of the Tele's “rules” indeed, their recitation and Tele tricks. BTW, the Tele neck pup for stuff like jazz is like a separate guitar. The middle pup on a Tele vs. a LP weds the edge of the bridge with the jazzy smokiness of the neck...and their child is truly one of the most saccharine tones clean on the planet... With refernce to this forum, the Strat has far more in common with acoustics than a Tele...though the Tele gets recommended as the first stop for acoustic players going electric..hey, I've done that. I would actually say the Strat has an overall more traditional sound? than the Tele though the Tele precedes it historically...a kind of solid body-archtop of sorts...the Strat. Thanks for starting this thread, Davis. Got me to look and listen again...not simply for questions of price point...and not simply to the vid of this thread but a lot of recordings from several decades...and come to some personal conclusions. Last edited by Guest 429; 02-22-2013 at 10:47 AM.
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#50
02-22-2013, 10:54 AM
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Very informative post Fret, as usual
 You know so much more about the builds of these guitars and I really had no way of expressing what you did, that due to its design, the strat "sound", in a mix, is easily emulated. Its different from acoustics, where, when soloing, small differences in tone make a huge impact. However, like the strat Squier, once the acoustic is in a band mix, these features become less important and playability and projection through the mix become primary. For thrash or grunge, both well developed styles, the tone of the pickups at the margin becomes even less important. The Squier and less so, the Bullet, can still deliver a mix of harmonic overtones. The Squiers overtones are messy and thats why they have an appeal. The US Strat has way more control of those on the pickup, but only when overdriven. As a clean tone test, I really do not think there is a difference in this recording. Other factors enter this equation, tonewoods are one. Basswood vs mahogany vs alder enter into the equation and that may be where strat model differences lie. I do find that the Tele, when simply put through a reverb, has alot of nuance. Due to that lack of compression you spoke of, it is a more malleable tone. Minor adjustments to the tone control on either pickup make huge impressions. I think part of the modern appeal of the Tele is the same as what draws folks to acoustic, the raw tone of the instrument has pleasing pallette and it responds to the most subtle of techniques, because it is so...raw. Ibanez has continually drawn me back because like the old Jean Claude Larrivee electrics, which to me, were among the finest built (solid wood, the neck was part of the total body, not separate, think of the craftsmanship..), it has the ability to sing. It is built from the ground up for sustain and at its best, is a smooth tone which responds to legato and creates a feeling of being uplifted. The power of each build is really to me, the ability to evoke mood in the listener. I think Larrivees electrics got it right and with EMG pickups, back in the early 80s, they defined that smooth, soaring lead tone which can elevate the listener. In other words, the tele was designed to make you tap your foot, the Larrivees and now Ibanez and similar builds, are designed to take the listener into outer space. With the advent of D tuning and drop C, etc...the guitar was turned entirely into a bass and drum kit and even though we may not listen to alot of Norweigian death metal, there is another level of artistry there where the guitar becomes the entire band. Thanks Fret for taking this discussion deeper than comparison.
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#51
02-22-2013, 11:03 AM
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Davis, to be frank, I took a LOT of time to adjust the pups on the Bullet...with amp set treble 10, bass 0. Even with those inexpensive ceramics you definitely get "quack" (and some decent "glass") relying later on the Strat tone pots for warmth and some very little for me, amp bass, sometimes no amp bass at all...just some mids and treble 10. With a set of 10s, you minimize some of the diffusion, mess you get with 9s...even on higher end Strats also IMO. I've actually set up higher end Strats with that basic working method.
My Bullet Strat is basically set up with an acoustic's action, trem floated. I finally went back to a Dunlop Nylon 1 mm. Adjust each pup for clarity, definition...go with the "string zing" of the Bullet's lighter zinc yeah cheaper trem block, but could had to also go back to trem cover ON. Glad you mentioned Ibanez which deserves much more respect, much much more...along with basswood, even the less expensive variety. All guitars can "cut through" and band arrangements can allow ANY guitar to "cut through" but when folks say "Nothing 'cuts through' like a Tele," IMO that's more a statement about timbre than treble and the way they see "rhythm guitar" in particular. They crave that. I don't. I find it fatiguing...and schlocky. Guitar in The Sex Pistols doesn't even function that way...and not in The Ramones. Have become more and more a fan, believer in "sitting in the mix" with a more tradiitonal? sense of "cutting though" when it's needed. But rhythm that's ALWAYS "cutting though?" and not in the least bit minimalistic? not at all subordinate? No thanks. The guitar that both "sits in the mix" and "cuts though" in what I think of as a more tradiitonal sense...the most easily? IMO a Strat...or an LP. Does that make me much of a Keef' fan post-1969? No. Last edited by Guest 429; 02-24-2013 at 09:06 PM.
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#52
02-23-2013, 02:18 AM
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Sheesh... TW
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#53
02-23-2013, 04:57 AM
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Feel free to read "Masters of the Telecasters." Most of those folks moved on from the Tele long ago, including folks like Albert Lee (Strats, Music Man). Tele lovers then go on to say "I really hate his 'tone' now." Townsend gets inserted in there though most identified with a Strat or the SG really...hey guitar players change around guitars... Didn't say "no influence." Said "no more influence than the SG" with Keith Richards and prop Teles out of the equation. Roy Buchanan in particular...and Jim Campilongo of recent years demonstrate the frequently unacclaimed, "guitarists for guitarists" niche Tele players carve out...except when they're a sideman like James Burton....or play in some minimalistic style...like a sideman. If instrumental guitar is a lonely place, I think instrumental guitar on a Tele is indeed the loneliest place. The Nocaster is truly a staggering guitar, amazing really. But there is such a thing as "too much guitar" IMO...and Tele playing, especially among the Tele luminaries like Buchanan, Gatton and now Campliongo...always seems most of all...at least to my listening..."about the Tele." I can't say this about Strat or LP luminaries in the same way. A sadly neglected consideration in discussions is the Gibson E335 or an E335 type guitar...in terms of everything... I can think of no guitarist more "willed into being influential" than Steve Cropper. Mojo putting him at number 2...didn't do him a favor IMO. It's almost like something out of The Onion. There's no such thing really as "being influenced by Steve Cropper." You would then be "playing Steve Cropper." His singular achievement deserves the proper context of recognition and respect...minus hyperbole. It might suprise you but I would put Vince Gill (minus Page as a"Tele player") as truly the most influential name on the list (vs. imagined or forced influence)...as a vocalist, songwriter and multi-musician...a class act....the total package. There's no such thing as "guitar playing." There's just "music." Last edited by Guest 429; 02-23-2013 at 05:50 AM.
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#54
02-23-2013, 09:08 AM
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I think the first mistake with the neck pup is people going for a sort of gooey SRV-thing or going for that even on high end Strats. But really IMO the first mistake with Strats is not really loving, forgetting about or somehow trivializing the middle pup (my favorite). And I've always been guilty of one of the above but usually misinterpreting the role of that pickup...relationally to the Strat design...though it's been my favorite for leads... "Bite?" I hear what you're saying, but I think it's a kind of "crispness" you can get with that pup (which includes a Strat essential for me "transparency") that makes 2 and 4 positions...more musical...at every price point...and now conclude that's the first stop really for pup adjustments on a Strat... a Tele has "bite" but zero transparency...the road to "glass." "Quack" is more a relational thing really and not simply sourced in the middle pup as I had clumisly previously stated. Last edited by Guest 429; 02-24-2013 at 06:56 AM.
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#55
02-23-2013, 04:41 PM
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I will probably put YJMs on the Squier. One day...
Fretbuzz, what pups would you throw on the Squier if you had the cash?
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#56
02-23-2013, 08:54 PM
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With price no object: Voodoo '69s.
http://www.dallenpickups.com/Product...ode=VP%2069VDO plus complete rewiring, new pots...
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#57
02-23-2013, 10:31 PM
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Why those pups Fret? Just curious.
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#58
02-24-2013, 06:00 AM
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For a start, would go with the loaded pickguard at $250...if I were heavily modding. David Allen is a name in pickups you and others here on the forum might like to check out. Me? Would be looking for 5.8K neck and middle that are not locked in (with tendency to overbass or brittle) but truly versatile and quiet...and handmade. Not looking for an all-things-must-go-well "copy" sort of pup (or actual Custom Shop '69s)...for the rest of my life.  Been there, done that on other guitars. Have played a DAllen install...you can take those pups almost anywhere...EXCEPT 50's Strat land. But if you're a fan of DiMarzios, stay put.I actually really like the stock ceramics on the Bullet...but really, tweak the pups, get them almost flush with pickguard and by small small increments tweak UP to the sweet spot for each pup. "Sweet spot" equals clarity, period. While listening, it's almost a visual, synesthesic effect. Do NOT try for "more bass" by way of proximity to the strings but by of staying low for definition. My pups look like slivers compared to the way these things ship stock and appear in stores. Last edited by Guest 429; 02-24-2013 at 06:39 AM.
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#59
02-24-2013, 06:26 AM
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ok first thing, I haven't read any of the posts, so as not to be influenced by anyone elses opinions.I listened through Grad SR325 headphones with eyes shut. I didn't notice any difference between the two guitars clean or overdriven. When the change to overdriven came I noticed the difference, but thought that was a guitar change. I couldn't even make a decision as to which is was, probably better that I didn't. I have owned many US strats over the years and more recently a MIJ squire strat that I changed the pots and selector switch on. In my opinion it sounded as good as any of the US strats. I would say the electrics may let the squire down long term and maybe the action on a well set up US strat could be better. Maybe not.
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#60
02-24-2013, 06:45 AM
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I have the action set up high on my Squier deliberately...and enjoy the tonal benefits of that...and it still plays great... Last edited by Guest 429; 02-24-2013 at 06:58 AM.
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