Talent Level Ignored When Forming a Band

[sled]

I think if one is complaining about less talented members of "the band" being included, then one is probably playing in the wrong house. Why are you there, to show off your musical skill or to worship with others who may be less fortunate? Maybe you should be in a band down at the pub...If that's not plain enough and I have to explain it any clearer I'd probably be back at banned camp.....

[Denny B]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Not at all - and just as all are not gifted as apostles/prophets/teachers/healers/administrators/interpreters, not all are gifted as musicians. My wife and I have been in a couple of similarly untenable situations over the last 50 years - where personal friendships, unrelated political agendas, and/or poor leadership supersede the greater good of not just the worship team but the congregation as a whole - and should you find yourself in those straits, perhaps it's best to shake the dust off your shoes as you leave and seek out a place where you can serve to the fullest...

Someone gave me that advice a long time ago... and I grew up, and shook the dust off as I left...the air was much fresher outside...

Every once in awhile, I'm reminded why I left, and remain grateful I made that choice...

Why don't we all just play some music?

[sled]

Originally Posted by Denny B

Why don't we all just play some music?

Evidently some are not good enough for certain congregations, that's why...apparently.

[Chicago Sandy]

We don’t have that situation in Reform, Reconstructionist & Conservative synagogues (the Orthodox forbid any music except singing by a male cantor, and men chanting during prayer). Many congregations, ours included, hire a professional choir for High Holy Day services (which increase attendance by more than 100%), as well as a cellist to play Kol Nidre on Yom Kippur, but have volunteer choirs the rest of the year.

One year, with a former cantor, we had a volunteer choir but had to audition to determine voice parts—we sang four-part harmonies. We were pretty darned good and the music was not easy. Then we changed cantors and the youth music director took over the choir—and it is not just volunteer, all comers welcome and not auditioned, but unison (due to the difficulty of finding men who want to sing). Meh. Too amateurish for me, so I’ll just sing from the pews with everyone else, unless I’m asked to solo.

Now, the youth music director, cantor and new rabbi are all guitarists and singers (the rabbi plays a Taylor 912 and is pretty darned good), so we don’t really have a “praise band” per se. (We don’t do “praise & worship”—the liturgy includes doxology/praise, thanksgiving, contemplative and petitionary prayer, so it’s all “worship"). The services have added lots of hymns and Israeli folk songs, and the congregation is expected to join in to the extent they wish. Music dominates our services now, and the enthusiasm among the congregants is inspirational. It feels like a nationwide temple youth camp festival but local, with adults.

The cantor is an operatic dramatic soprano (cantors are all classically trained, whether male or female), but everyone else sings “naturally.” And the cantor knows how to tone it down when singing ensemble harmony on hymns—she started out in contemporary musical theater (including the Chicago production of “Pump Boys & Dinettes”).

We do have a band that plays klezmer and standards for fun, concerts and family services. ("The (100% Kosher) Ham-It-Up-Band"—some of us wanted to call it “Rhythm’n’Jews,” with the “n” being the Hebrew letter “nun,” but nobody would have gotten it, and eventually a real pro band took that name). Nobody is auditioned, but everyone is competent—there’s an understanding among the congregants that if your skills are rudimentary, the band is not the place for you. Before I “turned pro” as a singer-songwriter, I played both rhythm guitar and bass in the band and sometimes sang. At any given time there are strings (including mandolin & violin), reeds, brass, bass, drums, and the leader on piano. Once we even had an accordion. (I’ve also had to be a substitute cantorial soloist a few times). If I have to retire from performing professionally, I might go back into the band in whatever capacity I am welcomed.

I wouldn’t quit my temple in order to play at one with a more “serious” band or choir.

[Cabarone]

My wife and I had a discussion along this line recently. We've been going to a new church (for us) for about a year now; long enough to start getting "familiar" (read: the veneer's coming off). Seems one of their singers' wife was not allowed to join the praise team. My wife (an excellent singer in her own right) was saying that wasn't right, that if someone wants to sing praises they should be encouraged to. My contention was that wanting to do something and being able to are two different things. If someone has a pitch problem that can throw others off key as well (I know from experience; hence, I DO use a capo when needed!)...but you don't want to discourage someone/quench their gift...so what do you do? Find songs for them to solo on? We're all supposed to check our egos at the door (it's not about us), and if someone's not a good fit for whatever reason they're just not a good fit...also, I reminded her we only heard one side of the story and let's please stay out of it..."Church folks" are people too and are just as likely to mock/make fun of someone's sincere but off-key singing as worldly folks...

[tbeltrans]

When I was growing, up there were "garage bands" everywhere. It seemed every other kid in high school was in some band. All these bands had their squabbles, broke up, reformed, etc. Out of all that maybe, possibly, a group would stick together and get somewhere, at least locally.

For many years, going to Guitar Center, the people working there seemed to be in some kind of band aiming at gigging in clubs, not unlike those garage bands from earlier years.

Bu then, starting somewhere in the 1990s, I started hearing about "worship" more and more. After a while, it seemed that all these people working at Guitar Center were in some sort of "worship" or "praise" band. It seemed as if these "worship" bands became the musical outlet for all those players who used to be in "garage bands".

It is possible that some folks had a religious bent, but I also know that for others, it was really just a gig in these "worship" bands. I got the sense that what a "worship" band was made up of, varied quite widely from church to church, which could be a good thing because that might mean that there is something somewhere, for everybody. If you don't fit at one church, find another with a "worship" band more suited to your needs. With that much variance, there is sure to be one that fits your needs somewhere. There are people I know who are paid to "worship" in these bands, and others who are volunteers with no consideration for pay in other "worship" bands. It all seems to depend on the church.

So, it does seem that if you don't fit well in one "worship" situation, there will be other groups of "worshippers" around that might be a much better fit. It would be advisable to look around for that right fit.

As for discussing it here, I am seeing more and more all the time "worship" and "praise" showing up in posts all over this forum. So I am guessing that as long as folks don't say what/who they are "worshipping" or "praising", and stick to the music they are playing, they can freely talk about this stuff here in these forums.

Tony

[Bob Womack]

Having played in both sacred and secular bands, I'll be honest: they are amazingly alike. T.B. Player doesn't have his head in the game but Fred the singer likes him so he'll never go. Chad the drummer (How can you be both behind the beat and always speeding up?) owns the P.A. system so you can drop him. Bob the guitarist is ambitious and driven and can be simply no fun as he pushes for perfection. He steals chicks from Fred the singer but basically carries the band so you can't dump him. Fred? He's the wheels on this van because he "nearly has a contract with a label" but he couldn't carry a tune in a bucket with a lid and a lock. George the keyboardist is all thumbs but he got the gig 'cause he knows the girls and the dealer.

See what I mean?

It's humanity. It's working with a group larger than one. It's a big quivering bowl of jello that's impossible to get your hands around and control because it always slips through. And the moment you start to like it, Chad the drummer takes his P.A. and forms another group. Of Fred's contract turns out to be hot air. Or Bob becomes impossible. Or Francine the BGV girl is discovered making out with George when she was supposedly engaged to Chad. Kaboom.

In churches, the reasons are different but the characters are the same.

Bob

* T.B. Player - a character from That Thing You Do, who you don't realize you never got his name until the credits where he is listed as... "T.B. Player" The Bass Player

[Rudals]

To bring this back a full circle (whatever that means) I think I am more frustrated at the system. What I said in the original post (1st) was more of a rant and myself venting. What I want to say is that the current system in place does NOT allow for growth/improvement. Practice is only 30 minutes before the "gig" and the songs are given out on the same day of the "gig". No one goes out of the way to tell a vocalist that they sing off beat or off key, no one goes out of the way to tell the dude with the $3,000 Gibson electric guitar that we have no idea what he is playing and should follow the music, and no one goes out of the way to tell the drummer that his beat goes off. That's where my frustration lies. All are welcomed (I realized that that isn't what I said orginally). I sucked when I first started and you all may think that I still suck but I started with a $25 Samick Squire from a garage sale. So yes, people who suck can all join but I just wish there is a system in place to nurture folks to become better. For now, it's whatever mistakes happened happened and see you all next week.

[KevWind]

Like both Bob and Steve et.al. have mentioned "club mentality" nepotism and or short supply of talent, in a musical performance group situation, is a universal human condition. The problems and solutions lie in looking beyond the specific particulars of "the genre" or the type of "group" involved.

The notion of the "village" or "tribe" and all inclusive participation is a great notion. But from the objective big picture perspective that usually involves percussion and more of a choral type of performance (that most can facilitate) as opposed to playing complex instruments and mic'ed vocals .... Jusss sayin'

The solution involves the concept of "if you want to change your world--change your perspective" The OP must decide if they want to stay in that particular club, then it is best to just accept that the music is secondary and accept the situation with the faults and try to make the best of it .
Or if the music is important enough to you perceive it is not really workable or what you want, then find a new group that has a closer perspective and perhaps a better talent pool .

[Rudals]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Like both Bob and Steve et.al. have mentioned "club mentality" nepotism and or short supply of talent, in a musical performance group situation, is a universal human condition. The problems and solutions lie in looking beyond the specific particulars of "the genre" or the type of "group" involved.

The notion of the "village" or "tribe" and all inclusive participation is a great notion. But from the objective big picture perspective that usually involves percussion and more of a choral type of performance (that most can facilitate) as opposed to playing complex instruments and mic'ed vocals .... Jusss sayin'

The solution involves the concept of "if you want to change your world--change your perspective" The OP must decide if they want to stay in that particular club, then it is best to just accept that the music is secondary and accept the situation with the faults and try to make the best of it .
Or if the music is important enough to you perceive it is not really workable or what you want, then find a new group that has a closer perspective and perhaps a better talent pool .

This pretty much sums it up. I am leaning towards just accepting all for what it is and just move forward.

[luke_bl]

My two cents- voice your concerns to your worship leader or pastor. Not us


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[amyFB]

Originally Posted by KevWind

....

The solution involves the concept of "if you want to change your world--change your perspective" .

The OP must decide ....accept the situation with the faults and try to make the best of it .
Or ..... then find a new group that has a closer perspective and perhaps a better talent pool .

Well said ^ and applicable to so many situations in life.

[rmp]

I am right where some of you are with this.


I joined the music ministry for our church (Roman Catholic) last fall as an instrumentalist when the music director asked for more participation. the plan was top update the music, the previous music director's choice in material was horrible..

There is only Craig, (the director) and I playing any instruments, I play a piano as well, so I can go either way as needed, but Craig is a pro, he's been doing this for 30 years, so far, I've only played guitar at the masses.

Craig will talk often to me before the choir members arrive about the talent pool he's working with, and his frustration with trying to get the most out of the people in the choir.

A few of them can sing great and can even read well. Others, lets just say,, they're not quite at the level where they should be singing, like AT ALL. but God love them, they want to do it, and they DO try.

He is constantly working them and they are getting better, and starting to listen to each other but it's an uphill battle, and sometimes, it's like herding cats... seems as a group, they have no attention span. When they are on with the harmonies, they sound great. BUT...

The other problem is there is such an antiquated sound system there, that it's pretty much pathetically useless. I plop a fishman loud box artist off to the side, turn it up so it's a the level with the piano, and that's all we got. The only mike setup is for the cantor.

It's a lousy setup.

There are 5 churches in our town, and this one we go to is the only one with out any sort of sound system. Frustrating....... Trying to get anything changed in this church, has to go thru the Dioceses and that takes forever.

Eventually there will be changes, and improvements that will help us a lot, so we're holding out for that to happen, but it's gonna take a while.

[desert2000]

yep, par for the course

The only thing that might make it worse is if the pastor insisted on leading worship, even if his voice was literally painful to hear, his guitar playing barely beginner level, and he also decided he was a songwriter. (not that I'm saying I've actually been in that situation...... )

Years ago, I went to a John Michael Talbot workshop. Two big takeaways: (1) you don't need much to lead (he did fine with himself singing and playing guitar, and had another fellow playing recorder); and (2) a quote that has stuck with me, "don't inflict your mediocrity upon the church".

Having been in dozens of church groups over the years, a couple of things stand out. He might not agree, but JMT's point #1 actually includes talent level. My experience tells me that 95% of a congregation is virtually tone deaf, and will applaud anyone willing to stand up and perform, and then double down on their excitement if the pastor is involved. But an important corollary to JMT's #2 is "don't be a distraction to worship". You can be a distraction by being too bad OR too good. (a whole 'nother discussion)

Anyway, as far as 'understanding' goes: it's just human nature.

[Mr. Jelly]

What I learned in business along time ago may apply. The first key to success is defining your goals. Then you can go about achieving them. So ask whoever is in charge what the goal is. If their goals and your goals are not the same then you should make a decision whether you want to be involved.