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Old 12-03-2011, 04:18 AM
Bongas Bongas is offline
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Default Great way of recording acoustic

For some time I've struggled with how to record my Martin OM-1 in my home. After trying different condensers and a bit of acoustic treatment I'm finally happy with this: I use an Ehrlund acoustic pickup located at vicinity of the second string, just behind the bridge:
Like this, but closer to the bridge
I also put my condenser in front of the sound-hole, at some distance. This is for adding depth. I then record both mics and blend to taste. Sounds excellent!

Since it's really hard treating your home acoustically like a big studio this is a good way, the Ehrlund records the "soul" of the the guitar without room ambience and the other mic allows just a bit of natural "body" and "depth.
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Old 12-03-2011, 05:00 AM
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$375 for a piezo pickup? Must be very, very good.
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Old 12-03-2011, 05:53 AM
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$375 for a piezo pickup? Must be very, very good.
It doesn't at all sound like a piezo, the guy that makes them is brilliant.
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Old 12-03-2011, 06:59 AM
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So it's not a piezo?
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Old 12-03-2011, 07:12 AM
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It uses a special patented "contact mic", but I've got no idea what's inside. It's no piezo quacker anyhow....
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Old 12-03-2011, 07:16 AM
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Thank you.
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:04 AM
Herb Hunter Herb Hunter is offline
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Here is a previous thread on the Ehrlund Acoustic Pickup:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=154746

According to this article, the pickup is a piezoelectric one:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr0...rtech_0406.htm
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:06 AM
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As I understand it the mic also picks up sound through air, anyway....it's not at all like playing with piezo.
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:30 AM
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The issue with piezo under saddle pickups is that the method of coupling (pickup directly below the saddle) imparts enough energy to the piezo element that it produces enough electronic energy on peaks to distort any preamp after it. A contact mic would most likely behave differently as the coupling between source energy and the pickup and is much less intimate. There is a good possibility that both overall and peak energy would be diminished.

Bob
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Old 12-03-2011, 10:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Womack View Post
The issue with piezo under saddle pickups is that the method of coupling (pickup directly below the saddle) imparts enough energy to the piezo element that it produces enough electronic energy on peaks to distort any preamp after it. A contact mic would most likely behave differently as the coupling between source energy and the pickup and is much less intimate. There is a good possibility that both overall and peak energy would be diminished.
Hi Bob...

Yes, and the K&K Pure Western Mini are also piezo elements, and most of us who use them feel they sound better than the under saddle piezos (even better than Baggs LB-6 and Hex pickups which put 6 piezos in the saddle slot supposedly lessening the pressured effect).

Yet, I've experimented with all of the different source options in studio, and two mics works better for me for recording decent guitars than combining any artificial/electronic signal, be it under saddle piezo (including multi-element), contact element, or magnetic elements.

Live, however, what the poster proposes is similar to a K&K dual source with the Pure Western Mini and internal mic. The sources are all external rather than internal.

In Studio...
I know Tommy E uses (or has in the past) his internal pickup/rig as one of 5 sources in studio (the other 4 are mics). He claims it gives the engineer more options. I've heard other pros do this as well, and though I don't prefer it, it is apparently frequently done.

There is often a 'hot spot' around the area of the bridge pictured in the link of the original post, and I get down on my knees and hunt for it with my ear about 1.5'' from the top of the guitar while the player plays and then that's where I locate the ''B'' mic of my A/B setups (the other being at the neck/body join).

On my personal guitars that spot varies from behind the bridge to just below it on different instruments, but apparently never wanders (it's always been in the same place the next time I record that instrument). If I were going to use a surface contact, that's where I'd likely locate it for starters.

The 'hot'-spot is more active in both volume and tone.

John Jorgenson (whom I've had the privilege to see live twice) uses a surface contact pickup in his Macafferri style instrument (nylon string) for live play. His backup guitarists don't always use them.

Not sure if he combines it with an internal pickup/mic as well...and I've never seen anything published about his recording setups. The 2 times I've seen him in person, and on videos, his stage amps and monitors vary a lot. He seems like an 'explorer' (read experimenter).

Hope this adds to the discussion.


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Old 12-03-2011, 10:35 AM
mr. beaumont mr. beaumont is offline
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I've only seen john in youtubes, but yeah, it's funny his sound is always great but i t rarely looks like he's doing the same thing...I imagine venue has something to do with it.

I've even seen him use a mag pickup (gypsy jazz guitars are actually steel strings) but that's a different sound entirely.

I guess it comes down to there being more than one way to skin a cat...I've done some experimenting with undersaddle pickup blended with mics...hearing that tommy does that might make me try that again.

Boy oh boy is recording an electric easier!
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Old 12-03-2011, 01:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
I know Tommy E uses (or has in the past) his internal pickup/rig as one of 5 sources in studio (the other 4 are mics). He claims it gives the engineer more options. I've heard other pros do this as well, and though I don't prefer it, it is apparently frequently done.
Pickups can certainly be useful in recording. But it's always hard to know what actually gets done with them in a commercial mix unless you're there at the mixing session. I've read TE say he's used them, I also read one interview where he said he used a pickup only as the feed for the reverb, while keeping the mics dry. Interesting idea, tho I tried it and didn't notice any advantage. But even TE may not know exactly what choices his engineer made in the end. I know that Andy McKee's latest CD was recorded with a K&K and 1 mic, tho even Andy doesn't know how the final mix was done, or even if the K&K was actually used in the end.

I'm in the middle of a project with Steve Baughman, and we recorded a direct pickup feed (UST) as well as mics. Most of the time I'm using 100% mics, but there are a few spots where the pickup is being useful to blend in just a tiny bit.

I haven't seen the Ehrlund, but it seems like in general, it would have similar behavior to other SBTs. Devil's in the details of course and they all sound different, and often behave differently on different guitars. It'd be interesting to check out.
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Old 12-03-2011, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljguitar View Post
Hi Bob...
...Yet, I've experimented with all of the different source options in studio, and two mics works better for me for recording decent guitars than combining any artificial/electronic signal, be it under saddle piezo (including multi-element), contact element, or magnetic elements.
Hehehehe... I got lost in the trees and forgot the forest. I was specifically speaking to the idea that a piezo is a piezo is a piezo and replying that differing applications could very well have differing sounds. To be honest, in the studio I've never used a pickup for anything other than bass support - I use mics as you do. We agree on this!

Of course, there is an interesting crossover application that is occurring more and more often these days: video recording of live or TV studio performances. In those cases you find TV directors overwhelming prefer use of pickups to keep mics out of the shot. The artist and audio engineer often have no option in this realm and a good pickup system is important. I remember a group of performances I was asked to mix where the artist went into the TV studio with a couple of early Taylor ES equipped guitars. Ouch! The upper-mid honk made it a chore. I'm glad they've gotten that under control.

Bob
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