Is it possible to build a T-shape saddle?

[hillin]

Recently I'm tuning the saddle of my parlor guitar. I would like to lower its action, but lowering the saddle too much will definitely reduce its volume and impact its tone because (to my understanding) the string break angle at the saddle became is far less than 45 degrees. Also because of the short scale length (22 3/4"), it's intonation is not very ideal. After several attempts, a special design came into my mind.



This is a T-shape saddle. Its lower part is the same as a typical one, but its upper part is much wider, as a result, 1) its rightmost edge (on the picture) can get nearer to the pins, so we can have a more ideal break angle; 2) its top is much wider than a typical one, leaving us more space to fine tune the intonation.



Will this design work? What would be its disadvantages?

[Halcyon/Tinker]

Yes you could do that but you really don't need to worry too much about break angle. As long as it has 'enough', there's enough.

[mirwa]

Yes,

but.....

For convenience and ease of job, you would flatten the top of the bridge, that way, you can make the underside of the T section square, this is then easily machined, if you were to try and radius the underside of the T for a curved bridge, it could be done, but far more expensive and I doubt it would look clean

Steve

[hillin]

Originally Posted by Halcyon/Tinker

Yes you could do that but you really don't need to worry too much about break angle. As long as it has 'enough', there's enough.

Thanks Halcyon. By saying "low" break angle, I mean "really low". I prefer the action to be as low as possible, as long as there is no string buzzes. In one attempt I made, the break angle of the 6ths string is very flat, like 15-20 degrees. I can clearly feel the difference in sound.

[hillin]

Originally Posted by mirwa

Yes,

but.....

For convenience and ease of job, you would flatten the top of the bridge, that way, you can make the underside of the T section square, this is then easily machined, if you were to try and radius the underside of the T for a curved bridge, it could be done, but far more expensive and I doubt it would look clean

Steve

Thanks Steve. I don't want to touch the bridge, because it's not undo-able. To spend some time sanding the saddle to fit the radius of bridge seems acceptable to me.
I'm just curious why I haven't seen any guitar with this design. There must be some reason other than the cost, right?

[mirwa]

Its more difficult to make that is all, why dont all guitars come with compensated nuts, because they are more time consuming

Steve

[charles Tauber]

One other solution to increase break angle is to effectively move the strings closer to the saddle, rather than move the saddle close to the strings. This is done by ramping the pin holes. It is a 10 minute job and is usually a viable solution and doesn't require making a new saddle. It that doesn't provide an adequate break angle, either the neck angle is wrong or the bridge too thick.

There really isn't any reason that you couldn't use a T-shaped saddle, but it isn't all too clear what the advantages are to it. A retrofit to a narrow saddle slot is one possible use, to give greater latitude for intonation setting. However, a wider saddle will also accomplish that.

The break angle is independent of the correct point over the saddle where the string must break to achieve good intonation. If you have a very shallow break angle on the bass E string, you can't just move the breaking point to the rear to improve the break angle: doing so will effect the intonation.

[Halcyon/Tinker]

^

Dot dot dot

[hillin]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

One other solution to increase break angle is to effectively move the strings closer to the saddle, rather than move the saddle close to the strings. This is done by ramping the pin holes. It is a 10 minute job and is usually a viable solution and doesn't require making a new saddle. It that doesn't provide an adequate break angle, either the neck angle is wrong or the bridge too thick.

There really isn't any reason that you couldn't use a T-shaped saddle, but it isn't all too clear what the advantages are to it. A retrofit to a narrow saddle slot is one possible use, to give greater latitude for intonation setting. However, a wider saddle will also accomplish that.

The break angle is independent of the correct point over the saddle where the string must break to achieve good intonation. If you have a very shallow break angle on the bass E string, you can't just move the breaking point to the rear to improve the break angle: doing so will effect the intonation.

Thank you Charles, I think you've got the point. The T-shape design could have more space for intonation tuning, but it can't be used to alter break angle by moving the contact point towards the pins, otherwise intonation might be compromised.

[Sperry]

That is a very nice sketch you developed. Ready for the patent office?

[John Arnold]

I have made L-shaped saddles, moving the contact point closer to the pins for intonation. That is the main reason to do it, not for increasing the break angle. As others pointed out, you can easily increase the break angle by cutting string ramps in the bridge. It is reversible. When I reset a neck and install a taller saddle, I often fill the string ramps with matching wood to decrease the string break angle. Anything more than 45 degrees is counterproductive because it puts excessive side force on the saddle. That can cause the saddle to lean, and in extreme cases, crack the bridge.

[Truckjohn]

Originally Posted by hillin

Recently I'm tuning the saddle of my parlor guitar. I would like to lower its action, but lowering the saddle too much will definitely reduce its volume and impact its tone because (to my understanding) the string break angle at the saddle became is far less than 45 degrees.

Also because of the short scale length (22 3/4"), it's intonation is not very ideal. After several attempts, a special design came into my mind.

One reason for reduction in volume with significantly reduced string height is because of restriction of the arc of string vibration... Aka - the distance between the frets and the strings is too short - so the string's movement is limited. It doesn't buzz when it's way too short - its just quiet and the tone isn't particularly good.

[M Hayden]

I’ve successfully doubled the thickness of the saddle towards the pins to get a 12-string to play in tune in a lowered tuning. Here’s how I did it - totally non-destructive to the guitar.

1. Put a full-height well-fit snug-fitting saddle blank into the slot
2. Tape a thin bit of adhesive-backed sandpaper to the space between the saddle slot and pins on the top of the bridge (sandpaper side up, tape against the bridge wood)
3. Use the sandpaper to sand the bottom of another blank (the extension piece) to the curve of the bridge, using the saddle blank in the slot for alignment. I sand side to side and use the saddle in the slot as a guide, and blow dust away all the time to prevent misalignment
4. When the extension piece fits well (which takes a while - I don’t sand aggressively), remove the sandpaper, measure how well the extension piece fits the curve of the bridge top with slips of paper and a feeler gauges, and adjust gaps with a paring knife used as a scraper on the bottom of the extension piece.
5. Scribe the saddle blank in the slot with the tip of the paring knife or something else sharp to provide an alignment line to use when gluing
6. Take both pieces out and carefully glue them together AWAY FROM THE GUITAR. Don’t ask why I know this . I have used superglue and epoxy to glue blanks and both work fine - just want to avoid delamination
7. Take the finished glued up lamination and install it, ensuring there is a good snug fit all around, then shape the top as needed with files and sandpaper. Intonation will be achieved.

This helped a lot with a nice solid wood 12-string which would not go to Leo Kottke territory (C to C or thereabouts) without terrible lower-string intonation. 3/32” saddles are often insufficient but I don’t have equipment to accurately cut a wider slot, and besides, I was concerned about structurally weakening the bridge by taking off material.

[StevenL]

I've thought about just this recently. A luthier replaced the original wide saddle in my Yairi with a 1/8" one but didn't check the intonation apparently. Screwed. The A string needs to go back a bit further than what is possible with the narrow saddle. The t-shape would allow for it but it would take some specialized tools and some skill that I don't think I have. Very precise work in tiny increments. I thought the luthier would be doing that.

Anyway, it looks like a viable design! Wish I had about 20 blanks just like that so I could experiment/practice setting intonation.

[StevenL]

I'd bet a used dental drill with the different bits for cutting and polishing would be great for saddle and nut shaping. Probably very expensive though.