Broken 12 string headstock

[YamaYairi]

Another source for syringes is McMaster-Carr. They have several gauges of needles, available separately. All very inexpensive and there is no minimum order. I find that the thinner gauge needles will not pass undiluted glue. The needles sold here do not have points on them, they are just a tube, much better for this application and less likely to injure yourself with.
http://www.mcmaster.com/#plastic-syringes/=n8ulrr
If you wipe up the glue squeezout immediately you will save yourself a lot of work. You will be left with a very slight crack in the finish if you do this correctly. You can run a bead of Superglue into that to seal the finish.

[fazool]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

We've been through this at least once before. Franklin makes a number of different adhesives called "titebond". You are referring to their liquid hide glue. As John pointed out urea is not a solvent for hide glue: it extends the open time of the glue and makes it liquid at room temperature.

Titebond I is an aliphatic resin glue, as is Elmer's wood glue. As John said they are interchangeable.

Yes, you are correct - my confusion. I was referring specifically to the liquid hide glue branded as Titebond. And yes "solvent" is not the accurate term.


Technicalities aside, I prefer liquid hide glue over Elmer's (although I did see a study somewhere that showed Elmer's worked about equally) - I just can't get over the elementary school art class stereotype and I *know* thats totally unfair.

[HHP]

I may be looking at this wrong, but it looks like this would be gluing up end grain. Isn't that a weaker joint?

[Eel]

Wow, thanks for the tips guys. I went to the pharmacy yesterday and they donated me 6 different hypos to use. I tested how far they will go into the crack and I can get almost all the way through the crack. I also tested how easily the glue will go through and it goes fairly well. I have one more question though, if I use 85/15 glue water mix, will it raise the open time for the glue? It advertises 5-10 mins and I don't want to rush getting the glue into the joint. Thanks again! You guys are a great help!

[redir]

If you can easily get glue into the crack then don't worry about diluting with water. Just inject more than enough glue in there and massage the crack open and closed and it will smear and suck the glue into where it needs to go. Then clean it up good with a damp rag as you hold the joint shut and clamp it up using cauls with cork or rubber or something like that for protection. You will probably need to clean more squeeze out as the clamps tighten, in fact you will want to see that.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by Eel

Wow, thanks for the tips guys. I went to the pharmacy yesterday and they donated me 6 different hypos to use. I tested how far they will go into the crack and I can get almost all the way through the crack. I also tested how easily the glue will go through and it goes fairly well. I have one more question though, if I use 85/15 glue water mix, will it raise the open time for the glue? It advertises 5-10 mins and I don't want to rush getting the glue into the joint. Thanks again! You guys are a great help!

1) Your "open time" is dependent on many factors. In your case, since all the glue will be inside the crack, the open time will be longer. Although, I'd want to clamp it fairly quickly so that the wood fibres expand "onto" each other, rather than "into" the opened crack gap.

2) Although I respect other's opinions, I wouldn't suggest at all entering water into the crack first. Two reasons: a) expansion of wood fibres (as above), and b) in this case, I don't believe wetting the wood will help absorb the glue, in fact, it may hinder the deeper penetration of glue into wood surrounding the crack.

3) Redir always posts great advice, so no conflict here. However, in this case, myself, I'd be more comfortable with a slightly watered down glue mix. I believe, if done well with slightly watered glue, compared to a fully thick glue, there will be less physical space of glue between the 2 sides of the crack. Also, there will be possible deeper penetration of glue into the wood due to the extra moisture for "seeping". Remember, it is only the glue fibres you need to "fuse" back together to restore the original wood as one piece. A thinned glue will provide all the strength necessary and be easier to avoid having a measurable thickness of glue inside the crack. I'm sure, however, doing this with fully thick glue as Redir suggests will also produce excellent results. Just sharing my methods and reasons for your consideration.

Let us know your results once re-glued.

[YamaYairi]

Originally Posted by HHP

I may be looking at this wrong, but it looks like this would be gluing up end grain. Isn't that a weaker joint?

Think about how the head is glued on to the neck in the first place.

[Eel]

Originally Posted by HCG Canada

1) Your "open time" is dependent on many factors. In your case, since all the glue will be inside the crack, the open time will be longer. Although, I'd want to clamp it fairly quickly so that the wood fibres expand "onto" each other, rather than "into" the opened crack gap.

2) Although I respect other's opinions, I wouldn't suggest at all entering water into the crack first. Two reasons: a) expansion of wood fibres (as above), and b) in this case, I don't believe wetting the wood will help absorb the glue, in fact, it may hinder the deeper penetration of glue into wood surrounding the crack.

3) Redir always posts great advice, so no conflict here. However, in this case, myself, I'd be more comfortable with a slightly watered down glue mix. I believe, if done well with slightly watered glue, compared to a fully thick glue, there will be less physical space of glue between the 2 sides of the crack. Also, there will be possible deeper penetration of glue into the wood due to the extra moisture for "seeping". Remember, it is only the glue fibres you need to "fuse" back together to restore the original wood as one piece. A thinned glue will provide all the strength necessary and be easier to avoid having a measurable thickness of glue inside the crack. I'm sure, however, doing this with fully thick glue as Redir suggests will also produce excellent results. Just sharing my methods and reasons for your consideration.

Let us know your results once re-glued.

Ill be sure to post my results. I wasn't planning on wetting the wood, just diluting the glue slightly to allow it to go farther into the break, and hopefully give me another couple minutes of open time to ensure that I can get the glue all the way in there. I'm planning on doing the deed tomorrow, tonight is jam night so there's no time today for anything but rock and roll lol.

[Zigeuner]

Originally Posted by HCG Canada

1) Your "open time" is dependent on many factors. In your case, since all the glue will be inside the crack, the open time will be longer. Although, I'd want to clamp it fairly quickly so that the wood fibres expand "onto" each other, rather than "into" the opened crack gap.

2) Although I respect other's opinions, I wouldn't suggest at all entering water into the crack first. Two reasons: a) expansion of wood fibres (as above), and b) in this case, I don't believe wetting the wood will help absorb the glue, in fact, it may hinder the deeper penetration of glue into wood surrounding the crack.

3) Redir always posts great advice, so no conflict here. However, in this case, myself, I'd be more comfortable with a slightly watered down glue mix. I believe, if done well with slightly watered glue, compared to a fully thick glue, there will be less physical space of glue between the 2 sides of the crack. Also, there will be possible deeper penetration of glue into the wood due to the extra moisture for "seeping". Remember, it is only the glue fibres you need to "fuse" back together to restore the original wood as one piece. A thinned glue will provide all the strength necessary and be easier to avoid having a measurable thickness of glue inside the crack. I'm sure, however, doing this with fully thick glue as Redir suggests will also produce excellent results. Just sharing my methods and reasons for your consideration.

Let us know your results once re-glued.

So you don't want to put any water into the crack to take advantage of capillary action but you want to dilute the glue. Sounds like the same thing to me. Which is it?

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by Zigeuner

So you don't want to put any water into the crack to take advantage of capillary action but you want to dilute the glue. Sounds like the same thing to me. Which is it?

Apply water. Capillary action sucks the WATER into the wood, filling the cells with water. Then, add glue, and whoops... The cells are already filled with water.

Ever try to mix glue and water on a palette? They don't spontaneously mix themselves together. Even if you bottle and cap water and glue, they don't mix to any significant degree, even if left overnight, even if left for a week. Hence, in the already water-loaded wood fibres, there is not a chance that any significant amount of glue will be sucked into the water loaded wood.

However, mix the glue and water first (by stirring and/or shaking) and then this mixture will get sucked into the wood. If shaking is used for mixing, I prefer to let the shaken glue stand for 24 hours to allow any potential bubbles to dissipate.


So, yes to capillary action, but no to capillary action with water. Water will not hold wood together, nor, as I mention, will water suck significant amounts of glue into itself.

[Zigeuner]

Originally Posted by HCG Canada

Apply water. Capillary action sucks the WATER into the wood, filling the cells with water. Then, add glue, and whoops... The cells are already filled with water.

Ever try to mix glue and water on a palette? They don't spontaneously mix themselves together. Even if you bottle and cap water and glue, they don't mix to any significant degree, even if left overnight, even if left for a week. Hence, in the already water-loaded wood fibres, there is not a chance that any significant amount of glue will be sucked into the water loaded wood.

However, mix the glue and water first (by stirring and/or shaking) and then this mixture will get sucked into the wood. If shaking is used for mixing, I prefer to let the shaken glue stand for 24 hours to allow any potential bubbles to dissipate.




So, yes to capillary action, but no to capillary action with water. Water will not hold wood together, nor, as I mention, will water suck significant amounts of glue into itself.

Whatever you say. LOL.

It must be the water up there where you are. Perhaps it's thicker.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by HCG Canada

Water will not hold wood together, nor, as I mention, will water suck significant amounts of glue into itself.

Some years ago, there was an interesting story by a fellow doing woodworking in the arctic. It was quite an amusing story following his trials and tribulations in attempting to glue and clamp plywood panels out of doors in windy conditions. In the end, he found what worked best was to wet the mating surfaces with water and them hold the pieces together for the minute it took for the water to freeze, bonding the joints.

The first law of engineering is, "You can't push on a rope". You can when its frozen. Can't help but wonder if they have gravity that far north.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by Zigeuner

Whatever you say. LOL.

It must be the water up there where you are. Perhaps it's thicker.

No need to mock. If it works, use it. If it doesn't, don't.

@ Charles - Good point!! ;-)

[redir]

Diluting the glue is perfectly acceptable. I don't think I would introduce water directly into the crack first either though it probably would be fine. The diluted glue will find it's way inside much easier.

You should in either case have enough time. Just get your clamps and cauls set up and do a dry run. Then lay out the clamps and cauls so you can easily grab them and don't tighten the first clamp to it's fullest. Get all the clamps finger tight then add pressure evenly until you get the pressure where you want it (which is not insanely tight ).

Good luck and post pics.

[John Arnold]

It must be the water up there where you are. Perhaps it's thicker.

I have tried to glue wet wood. It doesn't work.