the ultimate guitar pickup -- I'm not kidding

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by guitarisrshevy

Its a DPA 4060

Oh, of course, with one of their body mounts. Very nice and neat.

[jennconducts]

Doug or others,

What happens if one uses a stereo cable but plugs into a one channel amp or DI? Do the sources blend in equal measure? I ask because though I sometimes use the Highlander which would allow blending, I sometimes use the Bose T1. For the later, I suppose that I could use a cable that is stereo on the guitar end and splits into 2 mono jacks, and then plug into 2 channels of the T1 and blend at will?

Jenn

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by jennconducts

Doug or others,

What happens if one uses a stereo cable but plugs into a one channel amp or DI? Do the sources blend in equal measure? I ask because though I sometimes use the Highlander which would allow blending, I sometimes use the Bose T1. For the later, I suppose that I could use a cable that is stereo on the guitar end and splits into 2 mono jacks, and then plug into 2 channels of the T1 and blend at will?

Jenn

Right, you'd need a Y cable for your T1, Jenn. If a preamp takes a mono input, it's going to ignore the ring signal. So you'd need a cable to split into two mono outs,and use 2 channels.

There are a few pickup systems out that that are smart, and detect a mono cable, and do onboard blending, but the onboard preamp would have to do that, and the DTar doesn't. And of course a passive system would have no way to do anything like that.

[David_A]

I'm sure you've done your homework and I'm impressed but my K&K PURE Mini is about as natural a sound as I've heard; at least in my Huss & Dalton CM.
Anyway; a very interesting post!

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by David_A

I'm sure you've done your homework and I'm impressed but my K&K PURE Mini is about as natural a sound as I've heard; at least in my Huss & Dalton CM.
Anyway; a very interesting post!

The K&K is a very good sound. A lot of people add a mic to it to add a bit more air, for an even more natural sound. K&K even sells a mic to go with it. The DPA is just a higher quality mic.

I'm not sure what homework the OP did, but you can see mine here:

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests

of course, "the ultimate guitar pickup" is going to be different for different people!

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Don't mean the hijack the thread but how are those Headway preamps?

[alohachris]

Aloha,

The "Best" pick up system really does vary dramatically from player to player -and so do the other descriptive words we use to describe "best." I totally agree with Doug's assessments above, including the amazing amount of "Homework" that he's done - for all of our benefits. Mahalo Doug!

Players may like this or that type or brand of pickup, like the K&K SBT that David & so many love. But I'm here to tell you - NO PICKUP USED ALONE WILL SOUND "NATURAL." If natural acoustic sound is your goal, you'll need a mic or two in the mix & the ability to control it (w/ great EQ). And even then, it won't sound "just like your guitar" only amplified. It's the nature of amplification. That said, most of us could achieve a more natural live sound with a little more experimentation, planning, choosing complementary parts in a signal chain & a tad more money invested. But mostly - it's experience.

As the OP has discovered, a K&K or other SBT combined with a great internal mic can give you a more natural live acoustic sound, much more so than just using ANY single pickup of any type or brand alone. And it's more adaptable to the challenging venues in which we play.

So don't just get a single pickup and call it a day. Dual systems with an SBT & either internal or external mic (or both) in the mix will give you a much more natural acoustic result for live guitar. Check it out.

Of course, you'll need some kind of GOOD pre, DI or mixer to separately EQ, blend & sum the two signals - an expense that is really worth it be you pro gigger or home hobbyist.

As a soloist, I combine a K&K mini w/ an AKG 416 internal condenser mic in my three gigging guitars. And in quiet, great rooms, I sometimes add a great condenser mic (modded AKG 460) for even more mic-driven natural acoustic sound in the three-source mix. Very natural.

For me, there is no UST or magnetic pickup that I can include anymore that sounds natural to me. I occasionally use a Magmic magnetic w/ a K&K or alone when I play with bands or in very loud situations where mic's & SBT's can't be controlled - very rare.

Of course, using a good external mic alone will give you the most natural acoustic result. But you can't go that route easily in every venue or gigging situation, especially if you play with others or use crummy pre's w/ limited EQ depth.

Multi-source pickup systems are much better for control & more natural sounding than using a single pickup. The conceptual issue that confuses some is realizing that it actually takes more electronic stuff in a planned signal chain to achieve that more natural result. Simple is NOT BETTER in amplifying acoustic guitars.

A Hui Hou!
alohachris

[bravebone]

Originally Posted by Soli Deo Gloria

Don't mean the hijack the thread but how are those Headway preamps?

its a powerful little box...great EQ, phantom power, nicely thought out inputs that should cover most needs. has a nice notch filter for the second input -- usually a mic. EQ is not as specific as say a Paraacoustic DI, but has can do nice things if you are working with a half decent source. I honestly thought it wouldn't work for dual source like pickup and mic because the EQ affects both inputs, not specific to a single one, but was pleasantly surprised that when you use the notch filter on a mic, you can get a nice sound from it and the overall EQ is very complimentary.

Downside is it doesn't have in and outs for outboard FX. if that matters to you. Joe Glazer told me Ricky Skaggs uses one. very compact too, fits in a guitar case, which I like.

[Ken Donnell]

Everyone's comments are fascinating... both about mounting miniature mics and pickups. How to mount Mics inside guitars & other stringed instruments is the major focus of my life & work at the moment, and your experiences will be very useful as we constantly try to both improve sound quality, and simplify mounting mechanisms for acoustic guitars. A tip of my hat to you all. - Ken Donnell

[Soli Deo Gloria]

Wait, so, most of you guys who have dual source have two output jacks coming out of your guitar? Is that how most of the dual sourced systems like K&K and DTARs are supposed to be routed?

Sorry for the noob question...

[guitarisrshevy]

Originally Posted by Soli Deo Gloria

Wait, so, most of you guys who have dual source have two output jacks coming out of your guitar? Is that how most of the dual sourced systems like K&K and DTARs are supposed to be routed?

Sorry for the noob question...

Doug Young will correct me but he and most others will have one 1/4 jack that runs in stereo of the ring and tip. Doug uses the 18v from the dtar endpin preamp to power his mic.

I mounted mine with the xlr and the jack separate because i needed to phantom power the mic from my DI

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by guitarisrshevy

Doug Young will correct me but he and most others will have one 1/4 jack that runs in stereo of the ring and tip. Doug uses the 18v from the dtar endpin preamp to power his mic.

I mounted mine with the xlr and the jack separate because i needed to phantom power the mic from my DI

Right, the K&K comes with a stereo jack, so adding a 2nd source is just a matter of soldering it in. The DTar preamp has stereo out, and a 2nd input to the preamp, so you can just solder in a 2nd pickup. The Wavelength has an option to provide phantom power. On my passive guitars, I just use the K&K stereo jack and use the phantom power from the stereo jack on my SPS1 preamp to power the mic. There are lots of other preamps that offer that capability as well. if I have to plug in somewhere without my preamp, a normal mono cord still picks up the K&K and I just don't get the mic.

Multiple jacks on the guitar aren't uncommon, tho. Some systems don't play well together with a single jack, so depending on what you're combining, you might need a 2nd jack. Most people don't need this, tho.

[Doug Young]

Interesting article in the current Sound On Sound, by the way, about Peter Gabriel's live sound setup for his tour with a full orchestra. They're micing some of the strings with DPA 4060's clipped on - augmenting Schoeps mics overhead. It's also interesting that they say they achieve rock concert level "chest thumping bass" with nearly a hundred mics on stage. Not your typical acoustic guitar/coffee house setup, of course, but fascinating.

[Ken Donnell]

Doug - is there a URL for getting info about the DPA & Schepps combination? Ken Donnell

[Doug Young]

The online article is here:

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul1...el-on-tour.htm

But it requires a subscription.

They basically just explained that they're micing the orchestra with Schoeps overheads, but then putting 4060s on each individual instrument for a more direct sound and better mix control.