Why Do Many Amp-Type Products Seem To Be Missing One Or Two Key Features?

[open-road-matt]

I was reading this thread:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=470365

Someone is looking for advice on equipment for performing as a solo act. As always, folks here on the AGF are super helpful and are offering good advice.

It dawned on me though that IMO the market still seems to be missing the "ideal" solo act amp. Obviously we all have different ideas of what makes something perfect or ideal but I'm surprised at how often I'll look at an amp that looks like it could be really good and find what I consider to be a glaring omission.

The example that got me thinking about this is the AER Compact 60. It's a great amp and considered by many to be one of the best. It's very small and portable and can be carried in a soft gig bag. It can be (but doesn't need to be) mounted on a stand. It sounds good and can fill a pretty good sized space for something that size. The only downside to me of the AER Compact 60 is that it's a pain to try and use it as a monitor. You have to prop stuff under it, it doesn't feel stable, etc.

AER realized this "flaw" and came out with the Slope 60. All of the features of the Compact 60 in a shape that can be a floor wedge. But....like most products advertised as a floor monitor it looks like the angle would point it directly at your shins (even if you weren't tall like me) AND (unless I'm missing something) they left off the stand mounting bracket! That is a colossal mistake! The fact that you can easily mount a Compact 60 on a stand is one of the things that makes it so versatile. To leave this feature off of the Slope 60 ruins this amp!

Why does this always seem to be the case? Is it that hard to figure out what would make something a super-versatile, indispensable amp for the touring singer/songwriter?

Here's my list:

1) Size: small enough to be easily portable in a gig bag type case yet big enough to fill a little coffee shop, do a house concert, etc. (Think AER Compact 60 size)

2) Configurations: It has to be easily stand mountable (either on a mic stand or speaker stand) AND can sit on the floor or a table tilted up at the proper angle as a monitor (without an additional stand, little tilting wedges, etc.)

3) Proper Inputs, Outputs and Controls: Most companies seem to be getting this right. At least 2 channels that take both XLR and 1/4", Low, Mid and High EQ on each channel. Has to have a DI out. Has to have a master volume, etc. More is better here!

4) Optional Battery Power. I don't use this but I see a lot of folks on here that do so that would be nice.

5) My Dream Feature: an optional remote. The downside of putting an amp like the Compact 60, Shertler Unico, etc on a stand is that the controls are hard to reach. The original Bose L1 had a little remote that was basically a tiny mixer that you could mount on your mic stand, keep on a table next to you etc. I would like a wired one vs. bluetooth, etc. but that's just me.

That's about it.

It seems like most people who travel and play and sing would benefit from something that is easy to carry, sounds really good, can be used in a variety of configurations, can fill a small space and can be expanded upon as needed to fill any venue.

I have a little TC Helicon VoiceSolo FX150 that is stand mountable and can sit on a table or floor at a couple of different angles. Super small and portable but not big enough to really consider using on its own. Close but not quite! I would trade some of that portability for the ability to act as a stand alone system for small venues.

Sad to see something like the Slope 60 that is so close, yet so far away!

Matt

[RustyAxe]

There's no "perfect" system because no two performers need or want the same features. There is a minimum subset of features, some of which you describe. Some of the things you say are lacking are easily compensated for ... like a little wedge I made out of plywood to go under my little bass amp, or an amp stand on which I place whatever I need, preamps and EQs that have MUCH better features than those on most amps (e.g.; full and semi parametric EQ, ground lift, phase shift, DSP imaging, etc). I like my gear to be modular and scalable, because there is no "one-size-fits-all".

So ... what is "perfect" for one performer or gig is much less so for another. Many manufacturers are trying to be all things to all players, some with more success than others.

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by RustyAxe

Some of the things you say are lacking are easily compensated for ... like a little wedge I made out of plywood to go under my little bass amp, or an amp stand

But it's a pain in the *** to prop things up with plywood when it's possible to just make a cabinet that tilts.

That's my point.

Of course there are workarounds for anything but with some of these things, there shouldn't have to be.

Amps are commonly used in three configurations: 1) mounted on a speaker stand, 2) set on a table or something of similar height) 3) on the floor as a wedge monitor. It can't be that hard to make one that does all three (without a trip to the Home Depot!)

Matt

[FrankHudson]

This is slant to your main point, but if I had needs and found a perfect amp in all other respects, except that it didn't tilt back, I'd could add a pair of metal tilt back legs to the side of the amp (like some old Fender electric guitar amps had) or buy (our use, I already have one) a small folding standing like this one:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RS7500

These stands fold up into a small package. I've never considered the Fender tilt back legs, but they wouldn't cost much more and would serve if one was dead-set against having to tote one more (even small and light) thing.

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

This is slant to your main point, but if I had needs and found a perfect amp in all other respects, except that it didn't tilt back, I'd could add a pair of metal tilt back legs to the side of the amp (like some old Fender electric guitar amps had) or buy (our use, I already have one) a small folding standing like this one:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/RS7500

These stands fold up into a small package. I've never considered the Fender tilt back legs, but they wouldn't cost much more and would serve if one was dead-set against having to tote one more (even small and light) thing.

I remember looking at that little folding amp stand for my Compact 60. For me, this would angle the amp to point directly at my knee caps when I'm playing.

I should fully admit that I'm mostly just cranky about AER leaving the stand mounting bracket off of the Slope 60.

I know there is no "perfect" set up for everyone.

But it seems odd how often something (usually just one thing!) is missing from a product that would really make it pretty darn close.

I used a Bose L1 Compact for a while. That was small, light and portable, easy to set up and could fill a big area. But they left off a master volume! (Probably so we would buy their T1.)

It's just odd. It's like there's a conspiracy to leave one or two useful functions off of each product so we have to keep buying more gear!

Matt

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

I was reading this thread:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=470365

Someone is looking for advice on equipment for performing as a solo act. As always, folks here on the AGF are super helpful and are offering good advice.

It dawned on me though that IMO the market still seems to be missing the "ideal" solo act amp. Obviously we all have different ideas of what makes something perfect or ideal but I'm surprised at how often I'll look at an amp that looks like it could be really good and find what I consider to be a glaring omission.

The example that got me thinking about this is the AER Compact 60. It's a great amp and considered by many to be one of the best. It's very small and portable and can be carried in a soft gig bag. It can be (but doesn't need to be) mounted on a stand. It sounds good and can fill a pretty good sized space for something that size. The only downside to me of the AER Compact 60 is that it's a pain to try and use it as a monitor. You have to prop stuff under it, it doesn't feel stable, etc.

AER realized this "flaw" and came out with the Slope 60. All of the features of the Compact 60 in a shape that can be a floor wedge. But....like most products advertised as a floor monitor it looks like the angle would point it directly at your shins (even if you weren't tall like me) AND (unless I'm missing something) they left off the stand mounting bracket! That is a colossal mistake! The fact that you can easily mount a Compact 60 on a stand is one of the things that makes it so versatile. To leave this feature off of the Slope 60 ruins this amp!

Why does this always seem to be the case? Is it that hard to figure out what would make something a super-versatile, indispensable amp for the touring singer/songwriter?

Here's my list:

1) Size: small enough to be easily portable in a gig bag type case yet big enough to fill a little coffee shop, do a house concert, etc. (Think AER Compact 60 size)

2) Configurations: It has to be easily stand mountable (either on a mic stand or speaker stand) AND can sit on the floor or a table tilted up at the proper angle as a monitor (without an additional stand, little tilting wedges, etc.)

3) Proper Inputs, Outputs and Controls: Most companies seem to be getting this right. At least 2 channels that take both XLR and 1/4", Low, Mid and High EQ on each channel. Has to have a DI out. Has to have a master volume, etc. More is better here!

4) Optional Battery Power. I don't use this but I see a lot of folks on here that do so that would be nice.

5) My Dream Feature: an optional remote. The downside of putting an amp like the Compact 60, Shertler Unico, etc on a stand is that the controls are hard to reach. The original Bose L1 had a little remote that was basically a tiny mixer that you could mount on your mic stand, keep on a table next to you etc. I would like a wired one vs. bluetooth, etc. but that's just me.

That's about it.

It seems like most people who travel and play and sing would benefit from something that is easy to carry, sounds really good, can be used in a variety of configurations, can fill a small space and can be expanded upon as needed to fill any venue.

I have a little TC Helicon VoiceSolo FX150 that is stand mountable and can sit on a table or floor at a couple of different angles. Super small and portable but not big enough to really consider using on its own. Close but not quite! I would trade some of that portability for the ability to act as a stand alone system for small venues.

Sad to see something like the Slope 60 that is so close, yet so far away!

Matt

Why don't you buy a hinge, screw it under the compact 60 to tilt it, when you want , as you want?

Then Install a pole mount on the side, so when it is mounted on pole the pots are accessible. (Like in the laney A-fresco)

Then all your problems are solved...

Ps: I used to own the compact 60 and I like the sound of the Schertler JAM 150 better...

Battery operation should not be a problem since the compact mobile exist. A dc conversion should be possible... From what I know the are is just a car amplifier chip and an 40$ Italian twin come speaker. It will work on 12 v. You just have to install a small regulator for the preamp and drill a hole to connect an external li-ion battery.

http://sound.whsites.net/project169.htm

[martingitdave]

Matt,

I agree with a lot of those points. I will offer a case study.

I thought I had the perfect solution after buying the Mackie DLM8 powered speaker. But, as you suggest, it came up a little short. I purchased this as a FRFR cab/modeling amp for my electric guitar setup, and to use in place of something like a Loudbox mini for small coffee house salutations.

It is a tiny, 22 lb, 12" cube with (2) 500 watt RMS, class D amplifers. The speaker is coaxial so the unit can be miniaturized. It is capable of getting amazingly loud for a tiny speaker. The mixer had 16 effects to choose from a multiple EQ curves, including voicing to mimic QSC K Series and Yamaha cabinets. The onboard digital mixer has two channels plus an RCA line for break music. Also, it is pole mounted and check out that kick stand!






However, they made some very bizarre choices with respect to the mixer.

In the case of the DLM8, the second preamp channel is designed to accept TRS input, or balanced input on the 1/4" jack. They even show the picture of a guitar next to the line input, suggesting "Hey, plug in your guitar right here!" But, if you use a high impedance TS cable and pickup system, you get no gain. TRS cables short the switch jack on many pickup systems. The second channel becomes unusable.

Also, there is very little resolution with the level controls. It jumps in step functions instead of a smooth increase. It makes it very hard to use with other brands of speakers. Lastly, there is no master volume, just the independent channel gains.

It wouldn't take much to fix it. They need to increase the gain for channel 2, add a high z switch, add Bluetooth, and allow the digital mixer to use their iPad control app.

In the meantime, it works extremely well with the TC Play Acoustic with both channels accepting XLR inputs with individual gain. A master volume would still be nice to have. It also sounds fantastic being driven by the TouchMix 8.

Alternatively, I would be satisfied using a mic straight in and a preamp pedal between the guitar and channel 2. The onboard effects and EQ are good enough.

As far as incremental acoustic amplification product improvement goes, I think JBl did a nice job on the Eon Pro. They fixed all of the mixer issues and retained the same basic industrial design. However, it's not a 22 lb 12" cube. Last week, I was offered the opportunity to exchange this speaker for the new QSC K8.2 After a few days to consider, I actually declined. The K8.2 would have required the use of a mixer or the Play Acoustic, plus it's heavier and larger. I love the sound, size and weight of the DLM. Just wish they could build a decent mixer.

It seems every product is a compromise.

[hotroad]

I agree with OpenRoadMatt on all points but you left out one serious consideration and that is what I am hunting for.....tone. Of course all these systems say they have very good tone. But my thorough research has led me to find that there seems to be some serious doubt about tone for each of the systems that are talked about on this forum and elsewhere, from combo amps to speakers on poles to line arrays. Even the line array with sub and satellite speakers are limited in use at close range. To get the full tone of these one needs to be back ten feet or more.
So OpenRoadMatt is right. There is no one system that has it all yet, portability(under 45 pounds), all in one enclosure, ease of set up and use, cost affordable, great audiophile tone for acoustic use, enough power for up to 100 people, tilt back or highly efficient satellite speakers on poles or lower for close up use, at least two inputs for use without an external mixer, eq four band, phase switch, notch, battery powered option. I probably missed something.
From my recent and ongoing search, there are products that come close as OpenRoadMatt said, but very high quality tone is missing in all the systems I have discovered, and there are many these days. The AER and Shertler amps are good but need a mixer to have the tone I speak of.
Take the highest end home system and make it fit the above requirements for on the road use by an acoustic/vocal artist and I will buy it now.
Disclaimer...I am not as snotty as I sound here. I am seriously looking for what I just posted here. I am very open to suggestions and some on this forum have been hugely helpful in my search, such as Cuki and Martingitdave. Thanks. The search continues.

[open-road-matt]

Originally Posted by hotroad

I agree with OpenRoadMatt on all points but you left out one serious consideration and that is what I am hunting for.....tone.

Yes! I probably shouldn't have left that off the list. I figured sounding good was a given. But then...what is good?

Originally Posted by martingitdave

It seems every product is a compromise.

Indeed it is!

That little Mackie cube looks cool. Yorkville makes a similar creature:

http://yorkville.com/loudspeakers/nx/product/nx10c/

It doesn't offer much in the way of a mixer.

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Last week, I was offered the opportunity to exchange this speaker for the new QSC K8.2 After a few days to consider, I actually declined.

The K8.2 gets pretty close! Very versatile for a powered speaker. I know it's not supposed to be a stand alone amp but with EQ and master volume.... I was glad to see that QSC listened and made the new K8 easy to use as a monitor.

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Why don't you buy a hinge, screw it under the compact 60 to tilt it, when you want , as you want?

Then Install a pole mount on the side, so when it is mounted on pole the pots are accessible. (Like in the laney A-fresco)

Because I don't want to spend $1300 on an amp and drill holes in it!

Matt

[hotroad]

The Mackie DLM12 looks good but in reading reviews, mids are seriously lacking. Otherwise they seem close but expensive for two. Ouch.
Wonder if Martingitdave agrees with the reviews I read.

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by hotroad

The Mackie DLM12 looks good but in reading reviews, mids are seriously lacking. Otherwise they seem close but expensive for two. Ouch.
Wonder if Martingitdave agrees with the reviews I read.

They are both right and wrong. What I discovered with the DLM speaker is that the default DSP voicing options stink. This is how they are tested because the default voice is listed as "PA." One would assume that the default DSP would be voiced for flat response. But it isn't. It's all bass. However you can choose the QSC K series simulation (buried on page two of the menu) and the tone becomes even.

And, we've all got different ears.

I mostly like the DLM8 speaker because it's so loud, small, light, it tilts, and sounds good. But, I use it for small (quiet) room acoustic reinforcement and as a back line electric guitar amp replacement. I don't think it would be a good fit for you. I actually liked the tone and mixer of the Line 6 l2t better. It was just too big and heavy for the specific uses I have.

In you're case, I think you've got to get a full range flat response system (column/sub, satellite/sub, PA speaker/mixer) that sounds good to your ears. I just think your budget would have to be north of $1500 to get all you want.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Goat Mick]

I guess my ears probably aren't as picky as most but I get a lot of compliments on how clear and clean my live sound is. I use a Fender Acoustic 100 for my guitar and vocals. The digital effects are great and it'll cover a room of about 50 people. If I need more, I'll line out to my Bose Compact and I'm good for 100 - 150 people depending on the room. More than that and my partner line out from our acoustic amps to a pair of powered Alto speakers. Always using the mix from the amps. It's easy, consistent and sounds pretty dang good.

[fitness1]

I feel like there are more options than ever, and if you can get your mind around having a small unpowered mixer and a quality powered speaker (a pair if you really need the extra coverage) you can do very well for very little money.

I just had one of the biggest bang for the buck systems I'd ever owned - a pair of Harbinger V1012's and an Alto 802 Live mixer. All the features and sound you could ever want for about 425 shipped. The 1012's are super light and taking the Alto and one of those out would be a piece of cake. Instead of some kind of amp stand, just get a cheap speaker stand and put it up as high or low as you need it.

I see people spending 700-1000 dollars for a very small amp and then not having the features they want on it. They could do a lot better on all accounts if they go the route above or something similar.

For me, the problem of late hasn't been the PA gear, it's been frustration trying to get my guitars to sound like big versions of themselves as I've gone up the food chain.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by open-road-matt

Matt

Yes, "The market is lacking the "Perfect Solo Act Setup" if it weren't there would be one manufacture with one model

[ceciltguitar]

Another option? I have not tried it.

https://carvinaudio.com/products/s600b ???