Guitars "opening up" - How to defend the claim?

[Dundarave]

I would think that while “unprovable” to those who refuse accept common sense, pointing out that bent wood sides, together with now-aging and drying spruce tops (for example), together with fitted wooden necks that for the first time are undergoing permanent string tension, are all undergoing a process of reaching a new equilibrium together, as do all things in nature which are put under stress.

All physical things which undergo stress eventually reach a new equilibrium, and this takes time. In a guitar, those changes in wood-stress equilibrium means that a guitar on day 1 will be different than that of day 1001, and that is just common sense.

That is how I justify/explain my belief in the subjective notion of some guitars improving over time: a calm, rational, common-sense explanation that people can either accept or ignore. Those that choose to ignore the irrefutable equilibrium explanation, I consider irrational, and thus clearly not worth arguing with.

[BlueBowman]

For a YT comment, I'd say you went above and beyond in your response, and it was well-articulated. I also think that Monty Christo (above) raised some good points about how you could possibly improve any future arguments on the subject. It's tough to defend an opinion on YT, especially one as nebulous as guitars "opening up."

Lastly, you wanna have some real fun? Next, talk about guitars "going to sleep" after not being played for a while

[Joe Beamish]

I think the critic could have put it more nicely. But he does seem to be correct in substance. There appears to be no consensus on the matter of “opening up.”

I do know that if I sold new guitars or violins for a living, I’d want my prospective customers to believe the instrument will sound even better someday.

[simpl man]

It's been said before, but bears repeating "Perception is reality"!

[Rosette]

I think your response was thoughtful and articulate. And you’re not just commenting to the one individual, but to everyone who sees a thoughtful response to a snarky comment on your channel.

And I love your guitar demos, by the way. Great YT channel.

[bfm612]

[QUOTE=Dundarave;7353906]…. Those that choose to ignore the irrefutable equilibrium explanation, I consider irrational, and thus clearly not worth arguing with.[/QUOTE]

I think a problem with this explanation is that opening up implies an improvement. If people refuse to think that wood changes and settles over time, I agree that’s irrational. But the idea that the change over time isn’t just deterioration from wear/tearis instead an opening up I wouldn’t say is irrefutable.

[tbeltrans]

It seems to me that we here on AGF sometimes make things about guitar way too complicated. If I were selling guitars, I would most likely just want people to play them and decide for themselves if they like the tone as it is at the point in time that they play it. Making claims about the guitar that are difficult to prove and only serve as fodder for argument pro and con get in the way of simply experiencing the guitar for what it is.

Tony

[schmalex]

I think you did a good job of responding and giving important information without getting combative with a potential internet troll.

Whether it makes any difference to them is a different story though. I mean there are still people out there who deny that there is any legitimate proof for the world being round...

[SFCRetired]

People who say a guitar does not open up has never had a new guitar they kept for a long period of time. Or could be they are tone deaf.

My D16E is only 3 years old and it happened suddenly. One day I picked it up and said whoa, this guitar sounds totally different. and it will only get better.

And I am not one of those people who hears every detail about a guitar either, and I noticed it. Which in any scientific study or theory is remarkable.

[ssjk]

First of all I have no firm opinion on this matter. I’ve had some guitars for years. Some I like better now, some worse. Don’t know whether one group opened up or the other closed up or what.

And I agree it’s impossible to design/implement a controlled experiment. But maybe better than an “is so” / “is not” conversation (again) perhaps someone could describe not only the physical changes that occur to wood over time but why those particular changes should be positive.

In the absence of data we have to make do with anecdotes and theory. Plenty of the former above, but if the underlying theory behind the claim is stated above, I’ve missed it.

To be clear: not only “these changes can be shown to happen as wood ages” but “here is why this specific change would make the material more resonant, or have better trebles, or whatever” etc.

[RussellHawaii]

[QUOTE=. Last thought: ask any experienced luthier if they think that solid wood guitars change over time - you'll have a difficult time finding any who will say no."
[/QUOTE]


Well done, Larry.
I think the sentence about luthier testimonials is all that needs to be said, if the listener has an open mind. How could the best experts we have on the subject all be wrong?

( The parts about how hard it would be to isolate variables and duplicate a guitar for experimentation…those parts work against you, in my opinion. The parts about the structures in wood are useful.)

Also, many luthiers say the guitar’s sound changes dramatically in the first few hours of being strung up. How can this be true, and then all changes stop?

Subjectively, I’ve seen opening up happen gradually in some cases, and in other cases a fairly sudden and dramatic improvement after a couple years. Its not always subtle…it can be like night and day! Are my ears fooling me, in the same way other people’s ears fool them? Is mass hysteria a more logical theory, really?

Aloha Larry, thanks for fighting the good fight!

[fpuhan]

I think you did well under the circumstances. However, I submit that a guitar has more "intangibles" than can be observed or measured scientifically. Anyone who demands a black-or-white response to something like this is likely not going to be very satisfied with a "grey" reply.

Guitars have too many "intangibles" to be sliced, diced, sorted and catalogued. How often have we read someone trying multiple guitars of the same make and model in a store finding some not to their liking and one that hits the right spot?

Personally, I find that after I've taken a guitar out of the case in which it's been stored for a while, it takes a day or two to become re-acclimated. Which is just another way of saying, "Warmed up." Can I measure that? No. But I certainly can feel and hear the difference. And no amount of scientific "evidence" about wood, moisture, heat, construction, bracing, bridge height, nut width, etc. is going to change my perception.

And that's fine with me.

[Earl49]

Speaking as an engineer, I think you did fine job of laying out the problem Larry. A true study would take years of careful double-blind testing with top-notch analyzers and microphones in a lab and would easily qualify for a PhD dissertation in the physics of sound. It would be a $200K academic study minimum, not counting the guitars themselves.

If you need to quote someone, Bob Taylor has repeatedly said in print that there are three stages to a guitar's maturity and opening up. One: within the first hour of being strung up and under tension. Two: at about 2-4 weeks as the wood settles in to being under tension. Three: at about 3-10 years as the wood ages and has been cycled through several seasons of temperature and humidity. [I paraphrase].

I personally experienced opening up with a new Martin J-40. Elderly got it from the custom shop and shipped it out to me the next day. So I got it at about a week or two of age, unless it sat around the Martin factory for some time (it didn't). After about two years it suddenly blossomed into something special and became noticeably richer and smoother in tone -- not that it was a dud to begin with. It was perceptibly a night-and-day difference.

[Nama Ensou]

There are some popular views that I won’t ascribe to, but at the same time am not close to being convinced otherwise, and this falls into that range pretty well. No problem accepting that all things change with aging, yet if I’m buying a guitar, I just want it to sound good right now, and hopefully so in the foreseeable future as well.

[jaymarsch]

In my experience, the problem with trying to explain these things is that everyone’s ears are different in terms of what we each hear and how our brain processes what we hear or believes what we hear. So, I commend you for your effort but too many variables, as you stated, for people looking for absolute truth.
Best,
Jayne