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#1
10-24-2004, 01:52 PM
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Getting a better sound...
A few months ago I bought myself a Breedlove SC-25 - and it's a beautiful sounding acoustic guitar. I had an active fisman natural matrix pickup put in it (no holes in the side of my guitar) - which is alright, but really, it doesn't do justice for the guitar. It sounds like every other piezo equipped guitar, which really defeats the purpose of having a great sounding guitar. So I'm trying to figure out how to get a better plugged in sound...
I play in a mixture of settings - though mainly in a Christian Worship band with drums, bass, keys, ect. I also do solo stuff, and have done jazz gigs too - so my guitar needs to cover a lot of bases and needs to be feedback free. So far I've thought of these options: 1. Add a microphone - get a fishman elispe blender put in perhaps? 2. Change the pickup - Something like a K&K or b-band? 3. Get a great pre-amp - The fishman aura looks great, and there's a lot of people who like things like the AG stomp... Option number 3 seems to appeal to me a lot right now, since I could use it with my classical guitar (which has a fishman prefix blender in it, which is alright - but not exceptional either) as well as my breedlove. What would you pick? What would give you the the truest acoustic sound? Are there other options that I'm missing? 
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#2
10-24-2004, 02:40 PM
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I vote for the K&K.
I play Takamine with pre amp, taylor with the Fishman and a martin D28 with the K&K. It is the most natural sounding, not expensive and easy to fit in your guitar. Put a mic infront of you can sound very good, but you have to use a good mic and you must stay where you play. On the K&K website the compare there newest pickup with a neumann mic, and i believe it sound almost the same ( maybe the K&K even better) So for me it's no choise http://www.kksound.com/ John
__________________
Taylor 355ce 12 string Martin D28 Takamine ec132sc nylon G&L Comanche Squier stratocaster JV serie PRS singlecut Carvin BelAir Schertler Unico
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#3
10-24-2004, 08:30 PM
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#4
10-24-2004, 10:08 PM
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What kind of pre-amps would you recommend then?
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#5
10-24-2004, 10:22 PM
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E.A.,
As John said, The K&K is a very good option, they make a number of units, as far as faithful reproduction of that fine guitar, will go above any beyond what the Fishman will do. I am pretty smitten with the B-Band A2.2, and that gets my personal vote for about the best "overall" device to plug in an acoustic. But again, that and most of the K&K things are a few steps ahead of the Fishman. A new preamp would be nice, but really doesn't address the root problem.
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#6
10-25-2004, 08:29 PM
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My 2 cents:
I have a Larrivvee DO2 with a K&K Trinity dual source (pickup only) system going into a Presonus Acousti-Q blender preamp. After years of trying different pickup systems... BBand, Baggs, Fishman, PUTW etc. this is the only system I have been real happy with. I probably lucked out with this setup because I happened to get the internal mic in a position that didn't sound boxy. In other words, the reason it sounds like a mic'd guitar is because that's what it is. The bad news is that it is near impossible to get an internal mic to sound natural and not boxy. In regards to getting a pleasing plugged in sound, I have had some luck with the Fishman Aura, but not with the device by itself. I would have to run it in the effects loop of the Baggs Para DI with the Baggs unit taking care of the necessary tone shaping and the Aura adding some of the "air". I think the pickup (source signal) is very important and I've had more luck with the K&K "Krazy Glue'm on" pickups. The music stores I frequent don't carry high end gear like Pendulum preamps, but I have been thinking about the reasonably priced DTAR Equinox preamp/parametric which is probably a step up from the Baggs Para DI. Al
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#7
10-26-2004, 08:54 AM
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For true dual sourcing, consider the Rane AP-13, Raven Labs PMBII or the DTAR, all not to costly. For a high end pre, the Pendulum SPS-1 is the ticket.
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#9
10-26-2004, 01:02 PM
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Another vote for the K&K . . .
I use my K&K's in a dual-source system (Fishman UST is the other pickup), and use a stereo cable to go into a Rane AP13 preamp, which allows me to EQ the sources separately, and blend them for the best sound. Typically, my sound is about 85-90% K&K, and 10-15% Fishman.
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#10
10-26-2004, 01:40 PM
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like others have mentioned, i'd go with a new and/or additional pickup. and like others have mentioned, i think dual-source is the way to go. personally i use a mcintyre setup. lots of folks seem to like the k&k.
if you have a dual-source pickup system you'll need to process it somehow. i just recently started using a d-tar solstice two-channel preamp, which i use in tandem with a d-tar equinox parametric eq. i think the solstice is a great unit, and depending on your guitar and the room (or other notch controls on your amp or whatnot), you might not need the equinox. anyway, i think d-tar is worth checking out in the realm of dual-source preamps. rick turner has been very helpful. i wrote a bunch o' stuff on dual-sourcing a while back which may (or may not) be of interest: http://www.bansheewerks.com/frivolit...ml#dual_source the other, other thing you could try is externally mic'ing the guitar, but that carries its own set of issues... Last edited by mtmikey; 10-26-2004 at 06:51 PM.
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#11
10-26-2004, 05:13 PM
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According to the manual of the fishman natural pickups, you should be able to wire another pickup into the end pin pre-amp. Would I just be able to wire a K&K into that - and then mix them with some sort of outboard pre-amp like the Dtar solstace?
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#12
10-26-2004, 10:46 PM
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1. Install the new pickup, and solder the wires to the existing endpin. You should find that your Fishman is using either the tip or ring prong, so you just wire the new pickup to the unused prong. Connect the ground to the same place the ground for the Fishman is wired, and voila!, you now have a dual-source system. 2. Be sure to use a TRS cable so that the signals from both the tip and the ring prongs are being used. 3. In order to blend and process the signals separately, you'll need a blender/preamp with TRS input capability. A simple and effective one is the Presonus Acousti-Q, which I used to use until I wanted the added flexibility of being able to EQ each of the sources separately. I upgraded to the rackmounted Rane AP13, which gives me complete control over my sound. Mike Golay (mtmikey) mentioned the D-Tar preamp, and he's a fellow tone-freak, so you know it's gotta be good. I'm not sure how it compares price-wise with the AP13, but it may be a better option if you don't want a rackmount unit. By the way, his article on dual-sourcing is an interesting and worthwhile read. Since you already have the Fishman UST, adding an SBT (soundboard transducer) such as the K&K Pure Western or the McIntyre Acoustic Feather will give you the best results if you want to capture the character of your Breedlove's acoustic sound. Magnetic pickups are useful, but tend to make an acoustic sound a bit like an electric, and I've never been too impressed with soundhole mics. While using good mics is the best way to capture the true sound of your guitar, you'll notice that recording engineers don't place a microphone inside the guitar in the studio! You may also notice that not too many performers use mics--because they can be a real hassle to use live. For one, slight movements during the performance can change the sound, since the mic is stationary. You also have to factor in the acoustical properties of the room, since the mic will pick up sounds other than just your guitar, etc. For convenience, most performers opt for a good pickup, and use the mics in the studio.
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#13
10-27-2004, 08:48 AM
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d-tar equinox - $279 street = $630(ish) combined advantages: smaller units, very flexible. you may find that you only need the blending capability of the solstice and you have control over lows/mids/highs on both sources. you also have two mic inputs at your disposal (which are subject to whatever eq you intro on either [pickup] source, but it's still pretty convenient), so you actually have four inputs in one box. as i mentioned, if you want to intro parametric eq, you can chain in the equinox, which also has two notch filters. both the eq and notch can be bypassed, so you can use the features of the equinox when you want, and take them out of the chain when you don't. disadvantages: you need both the solstice and equinox to get the same [somewhat advanced] eq controls found on the rane, etc. (though you might not need them). also, you must apply the equinox para eq on a blended signal. you still have a lot of control here (check out the specs) with 3-band frequency/bandwidth/gain control and notch. but i'd still like to, if i could, be able to apply the para eq separately to either source. but really, that's kinda asking a lot. the good news is i'm finding i don't need it a lot of the time and i frequently bypass either the notch or para eq on the equinox. this is mostly dependent on the guitar i'm using. ap13 - $430(ish) street from what i've found advantages: good bang for the buck and very flexible. you have parametric [graphic, actually, as jim corrects below] eq control over both/either source(s) built in. disadvantage: rackmount, kinda biggish. i like the flexibility of the ap13, but i've gone with the d-tars after demoing them due to their portability and features, even though i need both to really do what i want to do. i've gotten really good support from the company as well. that said, the ap13 is a very good and popular unit that's been around for a while. and also: jim got mad skillz. when you sound like jim... you can play through a string and tin can and sound great! ah, the geekery of it all... if you're fortunate enough to demo some of these units i think that's the best way to see what works for you and the guitar. good luck. D-Tar Solstice D-Tar Equinox Rane AP-13 Last edited by mtmikey; 10-27-2004 at 09:56 AM.
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#14
10-27-2004, 09:34 AM
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I agree about the Rane's biggest disadvantage being its size--it's not as portable as the other units, and while you don't have to use it rackmounted, I think the unit would take a beating if it wasn't. My rack is quite heavy--in addition to the Rane, I've got a digital tuner, a power distributor, an Alesis Quadreverb, and a six-channel Samson PA head in there. However, having everything rackmounted like that makes setting up a breeze. Like I said, I'm not much of a "tech" kinda guy, so I'll take the bulk, weight, and convenience of the rack . . . because it's easier for me.  Of course, my favorite gigs are the little rooms where you don't need to plug in at all. 
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#15
10-27-2004, 09:51 AM
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i'm up to my boxes in boxes.
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