Doubling thirds in major chords taboo?

[JimCA]

"Never omit a 3rd, but doubling thirds in major chords sounds bad" says Maureen Cox in "Harmony is Fun" (targeted at piano players). But open C and G chords on guitar do that! My interest is in adding chord harmony to melodies on guitar. OK, I can see that in C chord you could play G instead of E on 1st string, and in G chord play D instead of B on 2nd string, and there are other voicings. But why isn't this part of guitar lore?

[mr. beaumont]

Well, playing the guitar like a piano, melody and chords, and strumming chords are very different things.

When playing solo arrangements, I'll often not double ANYTHING.

[JimCA]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Well, playing the guitar like a piano, melody and chords, and strumming chords are very different things.

When playing solo arrangements, I'll often not double ANYTHING.

I don't think playing open C and G chords on guitar are playing like a piano. Question is, on guitar do doubled thirds in chords sound bad?

[jessupe]

Originally Posted by JimCA

I don't think playing open C and G chords on guitar are playing like a piano. Question is, on guitar do doubled thirds in chords sound bad?

No, I have no idea why this person would suggest such a thing. If I am playing any chord in the second inversion off of the third, whereas the 3rd may be sounded as the octave.

So in the case of a C major chord we would have E and E in the octave left hand while playing an E,G,C,E in the right hand, so that right there would be 4 third degrees in a C major chord being played, which sounds fine as long as its in context to a harmonic progression and I see no reason why it would sound any "worse" on a guitar than any other instrument.

Let alone if we start getting into composition where other instruments can play parts of chords.

Related to leaving a 3rd out, frankly the third is the dictator of if something is major or minor. So it is a large part of metal playing for example by playing "power chords" 1-5's we leave out the 3rd, thus dictating no major or minor, but do establish a key center. A bass for example can establish the 3rd and therefor dictate the major or minor keys, to which the bass could then revert back to the the key center and the guitar could introduce thirds.

I have frankly never ever heard this advice in my 40 years of playing music and am not sure why such a thing would be said, but maybe I'm missing something.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by JimCA

"Never omit a 3rd, but doubling thirds in major chords sounds bad" says Maureen Cox in "Harmony is Fun" (targeted at piano players). But open C and G chords on guitar do that! My interest is in adding chord harmony to melodies on guitar. OK, I can see that in C chord you could play G instead of E on 1st string, and in G chord play D instead of B on 2nd string, and there are other voicings. But why isn't this part of guitar lore?

Interesting concept.

Whenever I play a 1st position G (which I seem to do as soon as I pick up a guitar, my ring finger hits the D on the B string ....so no second 3rd.

As far as the two (possibly three Es in a 1st position C The bass E is never played but I may well play and alternating bass line using the G on bass E , and the E on the d string will be the basis of melody lines, and , trying to think about it, not even sure that I'll always use the open top E so.....

Interesting to be made to think about this, I'm so old - I just pick up my guitar (grunt at the weight because that's what old men do) and my hands do the rest - I have little idea about what they do unless they don't.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by JimCA

I don't think playing open C and G chords on guitar are playing like a piano. Question is, on guitar do doubled thirds in chords sound bad?

Well, what do you think? Have you listened?

If there was a general view that it was bad, why would all guitar chord books show C and G chords with a doubled 3rd?

The injunction about doubling 3rds comes from classical harmony principles, based essentially on Bach chorales, and 4-voice harmony (SATB). In fact, even in that music, doubled 3rds are sometimes OK. Check this. and notice what it says under EXCEPTIONS:
http://spider.georgetowncollege.edu/...artwriting.htm
Remember this is about "part-writing" - classical SATB harmony. If you're not doing that, you can safely ignore that page.

E.g., notice what it says lower down under "Stuff NOT to do": "Avoid parallel 5ths, 8ths or unisons."
If you don't know that means, it basically means all power chord rock is "wrong". Oh no, we'll have to burn all those records now... Stop listening to that stuff! Arrest the musicians! (Poor ignorant schmucks...)

[JimCA]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Well, what do you think? Have you listened?

I have listened to open C and G for so long without question that they seem "normal".

Fingerstyle I never play the doubled thirds. But C with 1st string G strummed does sound sweeter.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by JimCA

I don't think playing open C and G chords on guitar are playing like a piano. Question is, on guitar do doubled thirds in chords sound bad?

No, that's what I'm saying, strumming open chords is NOT like playing a piano.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by JimCA

I have listened to open C and G for so long without question that they seem "normal".

Yes, that's because they are.

Originally Posted by JimCA

Fingerstyle I never play the doubled thirds. But C with 1st string G strummed does sound sweeter.

Matter of opinion. I like it both ways. Doubled E or doubled G!
There's the same choice with the G chord, to play open B or the D on 3rd fret (3-2-0-0-3-3): doubling the 5th instead of the 3rd.

I also like the 6-string C/G shape: 3-3-2-0-1-0. That's doubling everything!

With fingerstyle, arpeggiating the chord, other issues become relevant - melody in particular. I tend to agree, if I'm picking that top E, I probably won't include the lower E in a bass pattern.

The point about chord shapes for strumming is we want to be able to hit all the strings freely. So we fill all the strings we can, and mute one or two if we need to. It makes almost no difference which notes in a chord are doubled. When fingerpicking, we hear each individual note, so the voicing - the choice and order of chord ones - becomes more relevant.

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by JimCA

"Never omit a 3rd, but doubling thirds in major chords sounds bad" says Maureen Cox in "Harmony is Fun" (targeted at piano players). But open C and G chords on guitar do that! My interest is in adding chord harmony to melodies on guitar. OK, I can see that in C chord you could play G instead of E on 1st string, and in G chord play D instead of B on 2nd string, and there are other voicings. But why isn't this part of guitar lore?

When it comes to music, whenever I see "never" or "always," I stop reading.

[Doug Young]

This is one of those things that comes from classical theory, related to part writing, like for a string quartet. It's more of a stylistic thing, tho there is some reasoning behind it. If you want to sound like Bach or Mozart or..., there are a million "rules" you have to follow, like this one, if you want to sound right for that style (or want to get an A in music composition class). Odds are that's not what you're trying to do, and the only rule for most popular music is "if it sounds good, it is good".

[Owen David]

I think a lot of this theorising disregards (a) the instrument and (b) the way the instrument is played...

You can see how with stringed instruments that produce a very rich, thick sound you need to be v. careful how you deal with harmonies...

But the guitar is one of the most subtle instruments around...you can kind of affect how the note sounds through touch with both hands...it's so (in practised hands) easy to control the volume...you can go from virtually inaudible to a kind of loud percussive slap...

The piano is however a percussion instrument so it's kind of "on" or "off" and only the pedals allow you to alter the sound.

From all that I draw the idea that the harmonising on the guitar can be less rigid. Things work with guitar that wouldn't work with piano or stringed instruments like violin, cello and bass.

Originally Posted by Doug Young

This is one of those things that comes from classical theory, related to part writing, like for a string quartet. It's more of a stylistic thing, tho there is some reasoning behind it. If you want to sound like Bach or Mozart or..., there are a million "rules" you have to follow, like this one, if you want to sound right for that style (or want to get an A in music composition class). Odds are that's not what you're trying to do, and the only rule for most popular music is "if it sounds good, it is good".

[musicman1951]

Originally Posted by JimCA

"Never omit a 3rd, but doubling thirds in major chords sounds bad" says Maureen Cox in "Harmony is Fun" (targeted at piano players). But open C and G chords on guitar do that! My interest is in adding chord harmony to melodies on guitar. OK, I can see that in C chord you could play G instead of E on 1st string, and in G chord play D instead of B on 2nd string, and there are other voicings. But why isn't this part of guitar lore?

There are no absolute rules about doubling 3rds on any instrument. It’s absurd to say note doubling is always wrong - or usually wrong. Large ensembles obviously have to double chord tones.

I’ve been playing piano for over 50 years and I can’t say that a doubled 3rd ever sent my ear into a spasm.

There are very few absolutes of this nature. I’d trust my ear and ignore this advice.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by JimCA

"Never omit a 3rd, but doubling thirds in major chords sounds bad" says Maureen Cox in "Harmony is Fun" (targeted at piano players). But open C and G chords on guitar do that! My interest is in adding chord harmony to melodies on guitar. OK, I can see that in C chord you could play G instead of E on 1st string, and in G chord play D instead of B on 2nd string, and there are other voicings. But why isn't this part of guitar lore?

I've only heard a classical composition teacher say this. I wouldn't use it as a rule, but I do think this is why I don't care for the sound of open G and C with bar chords. I prefer the voicing of the barred C and/or G if I'm mixing them with other bars.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by musicman1951

There are no absolute rules about doubling 3rds on any instrument. It’s absurd to say note doubling is always wrong - or usually wrong. Large ensembles obviously have to double chord tones.

I’ve been playing piano for over 50 years and I can’t say that a doubled 3rd ever sent my ear into a spasm.

There are very few absolutes of this nature. I’d trust my ear and ignore this advice.

Right. Seems perverse to call the book "Harmony is Fun", and then spoil the fun by making up silly rules about what you shouldn't do.

The only thing you shouldn't do is play something that sounds bad. Because that's not "fun". Except when something that sounds bad IS fun, in which case it's OK.