Barre Chord Problem!

[ljguitar]

Hi GM

Here are three 1 minute videos I posted for students, and friends. Hope they give insight and help.

Barres have little to do with strength, and a well setup guitar with light enough strings will bring more success...

Where is the Pressure? - CLiCK

Barre From Above and Behind - CLiCK

Barre from Front - CLiCK

Again, I hope these help...

[Kupuna50]

One of the most overlooked tips is to insure your thumb is directly even with the barre finger. It insures that the entire finger is applying equal and even pressure on all 6 (or 5) strings.
You can bake the barre without doing this but you run the risk of damaging wrist and forearm muscles, especially if you play for an extended period using a lot of barre chords.
Give it a try!

[Mellow_D]

Originally Posted by Kupuna50

One of the most overlooked tips is to insure your thumb is directly even with the barre finger. It insures that the entire finger is applying equal and even pressure on all 6 (or 5) strings.
You can bake the barre without doing this but you run the risk of damaging wrist and forearm muscles, especially if you play for an extended period using a lot of barre chords.
Give it a try!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q2R7M...yer_detailpage

1. At 34 seconds into the video, ljguitar in the above video says "The thumb rides BEHIND the (barring/index) finger.

2. In another video I saw many months back, the teacher said, "The thumb goes BETWEEN the barring/index finger and the second finger.

3. And you say "your thumb is directly EVEN with the barre finger."


I learned barre chords many years ago, but I'm still fascinated by the rules as to WHERE DOES THE THUMB GO based on the above three differing views.

Is there any consensus?

[Bern]

Here is my rule...
Know how to fret them and play them within the context of songs until the sound clean. Just to practice barre chords alone, based on my experience, will prolong the time to master them. Oh, another thing, get it out of your mind that they're hard to play.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

...Is there any consensus?

Hi M_D…
First of all I don't think there's a rule. I think there are easier and harder ways to accomplish things, and as a teacher, I'm trying for easiest.

I'm also teaching what I do, and from the perspective of good posture.

If a fingerstyle student has mastered them a different way, I don't try to change their barre positions.

[Mellow_D]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi M_D…
First of all I don't think there's a rule. I think there are easier and harder ways to accomplish things, and as a teacher, I'm trying for easiest.

I'm also teaching what I do, and from the perspective of good posture.

If a fingerstyle student has mastered them a different way, I don't try to change their barre positions.

I know you're a teacher. May I ask you a question that was raised in another thread:

http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...60&postcount=7

"I thought you strum from your wrist? That your wrist moves up and down. I thought you 're NOT supposed to be moving your elbow OR your shoulder when you strum chords?

Did I learn this wrong years ago?"

When strumming, are you supposed to be moving your WHOLE arm or just your wrist? And if it is the whole arm, should it be more from the elbow or shoulder?

[stanron]

Hi Mellow D, I know you didn't ask me but I thought I'd chip in anyway. Picking from the wrist is a great way to play single note melody lines. It may not be enough to strum six string chords. That might require more arm movement, perhaps in part from the elbow. Off hand I can't think of anyone who strums from the shoulder although others may be wiser.

[Mellow_D]

Originally Posted by stanron

Hi Mellow D, I know you didn't ask me but I thought I'd chip in anyway. Picking from the wrist is a great way to play single note melody lines. It may not be enough to strum six string chords. That might require more arm movement, perhaps in part from the elbow. Off hand I can't think of anyone who strums from the shoulder although others may be wiser.

I have to say, when I first took lessons and was taught chords, I don't recall the teacher telling me how to strum. The focus was on fingering the chords -- open chords, barre chords. All these years later, I wonder if I was supposed to be taught how to strum.

Now since the internet came along (and youtube) I do recall seeing some videos where there was discussion about using the wrist more than swinging the arm up and down. But I never really gave much thought to it until TODAY, only after reading about strumming in another thread. And so I actually TOOK NOTICE today of how I strum and I observed I move my wrist and most of my forearm, but not the elbow or shoulder. My elbow doesn't move it all.

Now I'm wondering if I have been doing it wrong all these years and asking, today on this forum, what do most teachers say is the proper way to strum.

[stanron]

For me right and wrong are about how it sounds and not how it's done. Later, as a teacher, right and wrong might come into it if a student had a problem and changing procedure fixed the problem, but otherwise rules are for rulers. Long live the revolution.

[JanVigne]

"TOOK NOTICE today of how I strum and I observed I move my wrist and most of my forearm, but not the elbow or shoulder. My elbow doesn't move it all."





Sure it does, it acts as the fulcrum - or pivot point - of your forearm. If you move your forearm, you have to move your elbow. Not wildly up and down, but as a pivot.

Place a pencil on the end of a stick and attach the stick at one end. Trace the movement of the other end of the stick as it moves with the fulcrum end remaining fixed. It will trace an arc. The same action occurs when you move only your forearm to strum across six strings.

For most of us, this wouldn't be a problem if we've adopted a technique which results in a clean sounding strum. My suggestion was specifically to the op who, in the thread about strumming, was having a problem with, 1) the pick getting caught in the strings when he played super fast "like the pros" and 2) a "yikey- scratchy" sound. Certainly I could be wrong on this but it suggests a newbie who has yet to develop their own ability to strum six strings without problems. The scratchy sound is the pick moving at an angle across the strings IMO. The pick is getting caught in the strings on the upstroke due again to the angle of the pick against each string as it traces the same arc on the upwards stroke.

As I mentioned in that thread, if I were to teach someone how to throw a curveball, I would begin by getting the movement of the entire arm (starting at the shoulder) down pat before I proceeded to the elbow and then the wrist and finally the finger position of a curveball. IMO the same applies to strumming a guitar for a newbie player who wants to sound "like the pros". First, learn how it sounds to hit all the strings at a parallel angle to each string rather than at an oblique angle to each string. Notice that when you play each string at a parallel angle you do not get a "yikey scratchy" sound. Do so by moving your arm from the shoulder, not from the wrist or elbow. Once you've mastered the sound with the ability to strike each string evenly, make adjustments to your strumming technique which will accommodate your own personal needs.

I also suggested the op of that thread watch his "pros" rapidly strumming. He needs to throw out the histrionics of Pete Townshend and the like but not players like Doc Watson who tended to strum from his elbow with a completely stiff wrist. The techniques we will eventually adopt will be peculiar to each of us and, therefore, rules are made for the beginning student to teach them how the guitar sounds when it is played "correctly". Also, as I mention in the thread, this is no different IMO than the decision to use one, two or three fingers in fingerstyle playing. If it works for you and you can play well and in time, then I can't insist on anyone doing anything "my way". But you must first gain that sound in your head before you can make changes which deviate in physical form but not a cleanly played result.

Hope that clarifies the instructions I gave that op.

[Mellow_D]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

"Sure it does, it acts as the fulcrum - or pivot point - of your forearm. If you move your forearm, you have to move your elbow. Not wildly up and down, but as a pivot.

Hope that clarifies the instructions I gave that op.

Right, my elbow isn't moving up and down. It shakes a little, but the up and down movement/motion is coming from my wrist, I noticed.

I thought there was a suggestion that one should swing one's elbow "up and down."

But my elbow is almost stationary, with only some slight shaking, as my forearm, especially the closer you get to my wrist, that is "rotating" and my wrist itself is going in an "up and down" motion.

Again, these are things I just noticed about my strumming. And I hope I'm just doing it correctly after all these years. (Maybe my elbow shouldn't be so "close to stationary." Maybe I have my elbow too rigid when I strum? Perhaps -- while not going to the extreme of swinging my elbow up and down, I should be using it in some fashion a little more than I am?)

[JanVigne]

How's it sound? If it sounds good and the pick isn't flying out of your hand, you're probably doing it just fine.

The op's issue in the other thread was poor sound and the pick getting caught. And he wanted to strum rapidly as he's seen "the pros" do it.

I suspect if he pursues this, one day he'll think about the advice I gave him and think I was just plain nuts. But IMO you have to get the sound of the strum and the feel of the correct angle in your head before you can move forward. After that it should be all down hill coasting.

[Mellow_D]

Originally Posted by JanVigne

How's it sound? If it sounds good and the pick isn't flying out of your hand, you're probably doing it just fine.

The op's issue in the other thread was poor sound and the pick getting caught. And he wanted to strum rapidly as he's seen "the pros" do it.

I suspect if he pursues this, one day he'll think about the advice I gave him and think I was just plain nuts. But IMO you have to get the sound of the strum and the feel of the correct angle in your head before you can move forward. After that it should be all down hill coasting.

It sounds "ok" to me, but I only play for myself, for my own enjoyment. So it's subjective.

Perhaps if I used a different strumming approach I would notice a different sound and that would indicate the way I was doing it all these years wasn't proficient.

Again, it seems almost all the motion, movement, energy is coming from my wrists, a little from my forearm (the part CLOSEST to my wrist), with my elbow BARELY moving and my shoulder not moving at all.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Mellow_D

…When strumming, are you supposed to be moving your WHOLE arm or just your wrist? And if it is the whole arm, should it be more from the elbow or shoulder?

Hi M_D…

With or without a pick, with or without nails, with or without flesh, muted or not muted, in what context and for what application/use, purely rhythm, or rhythm with fills and leads, comping behind a lead player, accompanying singing?

There isn't one-strum-fits all in my experience.

And I'm not sure how one would strum from the shoulder (except for the showy round-the-world rock demonstrations I occasionally see)

One of the best - CLiCK

Three different type of strummers - CliCK (go about 40 sec in)

Not to leave the ladies out - CLiCK

Three ways I strum without picks - CliCK

Since I teach fingerstyle, my exposure to strummers is when I play in ensemble with other players, who I'm not responsible to teach, advise, nor correct. Unless someone is doing something obvious which could impede their style, I'm not likely to comment on it.

I'm not a pick strummer. My giggin' partner is a hybrid player who strums with a pick while picking with fingers 3-4 when fingerpicking/hybrid-picking.

[JanVigne]

"And I'm not sure how one would strum from the shoulder ... "


As if you were jacking up a car, straight up and down from the shoulder. Fix your elbow at the correct angle and move only your shoulder to strum. There should be no "yikey scratchy' sound if you hold the pick parallel to the strings.