Why no B#/Cb or E#/Fb ?

[mtnByker]

Something that I have never understood is why there is no B#/Cb note and why no E#/Fb.

OK, I know that C can be thought of as B# and B can be seen as Cb, and that the same is true for E and F, but why in the entire scale is there no note between these two pairs. and only these two pairs of notes?

There must be some logical reason why it is structured this way...

[Howard Klepper]

12 tones, of which 7 are used in the diatonic scales. Want to have a letter name for each of the 7 and use consecutive letters. Result is two of the letters don't have a note between them.

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by mtnByker

There must be some logical reason why it is structured this way...

Well, they could've made all the keys on a piano "white", and then named the 12 notes A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L.

But then it would be very difficult to know where you are on the keyboard.

The "patterns" of three white keys with two black keys between them, followed by four white keys with three black keys between them, is what helps a pianist "find his way" around the keyboard.

Those black keys are what get referred to as "sharps" and "flats". But there isn't a black key between B and C, nor between E and F.

Thus, no Bsharp, Cflat, Esharp, Fflat. (Though, as you mention, B# is C, Cb is B, E# is F, and Fb is E.)

[Nephidoc]

I think this is actually a very interesting Sociology topic. It really comes down to what we are "trained" to find pleasing to our limited Western minds. Different cultures find different steps pleasing. I mean why not 1/8 step scales. I think it's our limited minds and somewhere in our development it's coded into our brains what sounds good.

Stan

[Bill Cory]

If you want to have a scale wth no half steps, check out this wiki entry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whole_tone_scale

[Michael Watts]

These notes do exist as microtones. Do quick search on Pythagoras and enjoy!

[JohnZ]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

Well, they could've made all the keys on a piano "white", and then named the 12 notes A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L.

But then it would be very difficult to know where you are on the keyboard.

The "patterns" of three white keys with two black keys between them, followed by four white keys with three black keys between them, is what helps a pianist "find his way" around the keyboard.

Those black keys are what get referred to as "sharps" and "flats". But there isn't a black key between B and C, nor between E and F.

Thus, no Bsharp, Cflat, Esharp, Fflat. (Though, as you mention, B# is C, Cb is B, E# is F, and Fb is E.)

I say make 'em play all white keys and go A through L....guitarists don't get any such luxury. Better yet, get rid of keys altogether with four rows of 22 buttons.

[bishopdm]

These are not microtones (the "microtonal space" between a B and C is not a C-flat!), and yes, of course they exist. For example, you can't spell a D diminished 7th without a C-flat, not to mention a C-flat major triad. It has nothing to do with the structure of the chromatic scale, just the way we label the individual notes. The history of music theory is long and complicated and rarely consistent.

[yardism]

You've gotten it all wrong... it's because no songs have been written with those notes, therefore they are not needed...

[OddManOut]

Originally Posted by [email protected]

For example, you can't spell a D diminished 7th without a C-flat

Huh? D-F-Ab-B. I guess using "B' instead of "Cb" is a violation of the Geneva Convention. <----Comment meant in good humor

[ccarnucci]

I dont know the answer but I would like to know it too.

It seems to me that in must something like "because thats how the math works out" or maybe "frequency issues" or something like that. I say this because ....

On the fret board there is a whole step between A&B, C&D, D&E, and F&G, but only a half step between B&C and E&F. and not just in fret wire I'm talking. There is litterally less space between B&C. I also guess I get the part about our western ears being trained to like a certain sound but that cant be all of it. Because even in Eastern music there is still only a half step between the sound of B&C no matter what we name them.

Just my 1/2 cents (deflation acounted)

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by ccarnucci

It seems to me that in must something like "because thats how the math works out" or maybe "frequency issues" or something like that.

That's got nothing to do with it.

It does have a bit to do with why we have a 12-note scale, though.

But, as I said, you can name those 12 notes whatever you want.

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12

A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I J, K, L

1, 1#/2b, 2, 2#/3b, 3, 3#/4b, 4, 4#/5b, 5, 5#/6b, 6, 6#/1b

A, A#/Bb, B, B#/Cb, C, C#/Db, D, D#/Eb, E, E#/Fb, F, F#/Ab

would be possibilities, for example.

But again, the latter would be the equivalent (on a keyboard) of a bunch of white keys all with black keys in between them. There would be no obvious way of identifying one note from the other. How could you possibly tell an A from a B, for example?

The standard piano configuration is what makes this possible, and is why two sets of white keys have no black keys between them.

It really IS as simple as that (once you've decided on a 12-note scale, of course).

[mtnByker]

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

But again, the latter would be the equivalent (on a keyboard) of a bunch of white keys all with black keys in between them. There would be no obvious way of identifying one note from the other. How could you possibly tell an A from a B, for example?

The standard piano configuration is what makes this possible, and is why two sets of white keys have no black keys between them.

It really IS as simple as that (once you've decided on a 12-note scale, of course).

So it really is all based just on giving a visible clue on a keyboard as to which notes are which?

I guess this makes sense, I just figured there was some other deeper theoretical reason based on frequencies, octaves, intervals, harmonies, etc...

[SongwriterFan]

Originally Posted by mtnByker

I just figured there was some other deeper theoretical reason based on frequencies, octaves, intervals, harmonies, etc...

Nope.

Think about it for a minute. How could those (important) issues have anything to do with what you name the notes? Or what kind of keys the notes are played on?

It's really ONLY on the piano that there's a reason for not having the names of the notes be:

A, A#/Bb, B, B#/Cb, C, C#/Db, D, D#/Eb, E, E#/Fb, F, F#/Ab

Or just 1-12 or A-L.

Well, OK . . maybe I'm overstating just a bit.

After all, the major scale is comprised of eight very specific notes out of the 12 notes. So, if you want those eight notes (in one of the 12 possible major scales, anyway) to not have any "sharps" or "flats" (as defined by black keys on a piano) . . . . .

[Andromeda]

All of you are wrong. B# does exist!