Tried Taylor V-braced guitars, here's what I think...

[00045]

Originally Posted by Rmz76

For what Taylor is having their reps tell potential customers regarding V-Class bracing's benefits to be true statements, then Taylor has to be making these claims (see video below of an actual Taylor rep doing one of their clinics. This is a sample of what they are telling the world at their road show events). For the statements made in that video to be true then they are indeed claiming that "everyone's old school design is flawed". They absolutely ARE making that claim.




If you watch the video above and think otherwise, I would be interested to hear your interpretation. But Taylor's stance on this is very, very clear. Not just by the this reps words, but also from the mouth of Bob Taylor, Andy Powers and the companies admission that their plain is to remove X-bracing from the entire lineup and transition to V-Class bracing. Even if you interpret their comments to be specific only to Taylor's past X-braced guitars (leaving Martin, Gibson, etc.. out of it), they are still clearly saying if you own a X-braced Taylor it's upcoming V-braced counterpart will be superior. It is their unwillingness to approach this topic on subjective terms that has everyone angry. BTW Taylor is including all X-braced guitars in their judgement not just their own products. That includes even those old pre-war Martins. I don't have the videos handy, but their comments at NAMM made this clear to me.

I see no room for interpretation on how Taylor Guitars feels regarding the X-bracing vs V-Class bracing debate. They see their new design as so superior they intend to get rid of X-bracing entirely.



If Bob Tayor, Andy Powers & co truly believe their V-Class bracing is universally superior to X-bracing for all Taylor guitars, then I would say they are being honest. If however, they have made the decision to push V-Class bracing across the entire Taylor line just to make marketing happy to do what's best for business (they both have stake in the company and stand to profit), then there is a valid perspective to see their actions as dishonest. I believe Bob and Andy both believe in V-Class bracing and think it has some benefits over X-Class bracing, sure. But do I think they both believe for every guitar model in their lineup that it is better? After giving it a try for myself, I really doubt that. So that leads to the question "Would these two men go along with Taylor's marketing department and push V-Class bracing as universally superior to X-bracing just for the sake of the business?" I think they would and I think they are doing exactly that. If they are, then they are being dishonest and lying; at least from a certain perspective. Business ethics is a bit subjective territory. In my opinion it comes down to specific industry/market and what the norms are. In the game of Capitalism I don't know that it's fair to judge a company for duplicating questionable marketing tactics in order to stay competitive. Sometimes they are left without a choice. But I see it as rather despicable to pioneer these sort of tactics in the market when you're the company already crushing all your competitors as Taylor is. If seen some of the Martin ads where people are claiming "they did they same thing". I don't agree that it's the same thing. If you listen to Chris Martin talk about the 2018 redesigns, I hear no grandiose claims just honest conversation. You may see it differently, and that's fine.

I was impressed with the V-class K14, but it doesn't give me sleepless nights and make me run out and sell my Gibson's and Martin. I liked that K14, it was the most impressive TAYLOR 6-string I played so far. But to date, I have no plans to purchase one.

[JohnW63]

For the statements made in that video to be true then they are indeed claiming that "everyone's old school design is flawed".

And you take this view of guitar design personally.

It is their unwillingness to approach this topic on subjective terms that has everyone angry.

See. You take their view of guitar design as an insult. That's not their fault. There a lots of people on this forum alone who do not share your feelings, so it is not a universal reaction, nor should it be taken as fact. It's just your reaction.

"Would these two men go along with Taylor's marketing department and push V-Class bracing as universally superior to X-bracing just for the sake of the business?" I think they would and I think they are doing exactly that.

And THAT is why you think they are dishonest ! I do NOT believe they would change their whole line because some marketing hack told them to. Good grief, give them some intellectual credit ! They both know quite a bit about guitar construction and various bracing methods used over the years, I am quite sure. I feel confident in stating I do NOT think this is just some marketing gimmick. You apparently do. Which is again why you get angry and call them all sorts of things because you do not feel they are actually trying something new because the really believe it what they are doing.

Maybe it is because I don't CARE what bracing pattern is hidden under the tops of my guitars. I probably have a least 4 different ones in my signature. That Yamaha has NO top or bracing ! So, I am not married to one vs. the other. I suspect others, yourself included, feel nothing is better than the X brace method, and that is the heart of your problem with this change.

[Goodallboy]

In a recent Wood and Steel, Bob Taylor states that the new bracing assists you in singing. I won't try to quote him, as I've passed the issue on, but it was very stunning to read just how convinced Mr. Taylor has become.

I'm convinced I need one!

[Rmz76]

Originally Posted by JohnW63

And you take this view of guitar design personally.
See. You take their view of guitar design as an insult.

That's not true.

And THAT is why you think they are dishonest ! I do NOT believe they would change their whole line because some marketing hack told them to. Good grief, give them some intellectual credit

Not just marketing hack (not sure Taylor hires hacks, their marketing of acoustic guitars is second to none), but more a closed door meeting between the key stakeholders of Taylor where a decision was made "V-Class bracing is the best decision for our business moving forward". I think that happened the evidence it happened is in the announcement that they will be bringing this to the entire line. Did everyone in the room agree with this decision? We'll never know.

They both know quite a bit about guitar construction and various bracing methods used over the years, I am quite sure. I feel confident in stating I do NOT think this is just some marketing gimmick. You apparently do.

You didn't read what I said. I stated that I'm sure both Bob and Andy feel that there are benefits to V-bracing. I don't think at all that it's "just a marketing gimmick". But even if there's some truth to it being a marketing gimmick then the question of it's honesty comes into focus. If it's in part a marketing gimmick then the question is "how big is the lie" and how does that matter. I've already given examples of where I think they crossed the line others companies have not. Going in to try these guitars I wasn't expecting to like them at all based on the audio clips from the many videos I've seen. My first hand experiences with these guitars did change my mind in that I liked the K24ce. So I don't personally believe it's just a gimmick. It's a innovative design that will benefit some of their lineup and will work for some players and not others. I've said that many times.

...Maybe it is because I don't CARE what bracing pattern is hidden under the tops of my guitars. I probably have a least 4 different ones in my signature. That Yamaha has NO top or bracing ! So, I am not married to one vs. the other. I suspect others, yourself included, feel nothing is better than the X brace method, and that is the heart of your problem with this change.

I can see how you might infer that. It's not true. I'm actually a fan of ladder bracing on certain models (Waterloo WL-14, Harmony H-126). I also like what PRS has done with fan bracing a few years ago. What I mean by that is, I'm a fan of the unique tone I've hearing resulting from these builders designs. I'm taking the builders word that the bracing is making that difference. In the case of the Waterloo, I've been able to play both X and ladder braced versions of the same guitar in the same way I was able to with the Taylor models (Waterloo has chosen to offer ladder and X-braced options on a few of their guitars). The difference in what Taylor has done is that they've made bold claims about how superior their new bracing pattern is to anything else. If you think they haven't made that claim then you haven't really listened to their comments regarding sustain, volume and intonation improvements... Not going to rehash everything I've already said in this thread, but my issue is with their ignoring the subjective nature of timbre.

I think we can agree it's Taylor's decision to design their guitars as they wish. Their motives for doing that are fun to speculate, but in the end they are just speculation. In my opinion if they didn't want all this chatter they wouldn't have gone so over the top with the marketing.

The differences between X and V braced are so nuanced (they probably go away entirely when plugged in) that most players will give a rats behind. The passion fueled discussions are all about how these claims hurt the competition by creating the idea in customers minds that V-class bracing is superior and only Taylor has it... I think if you go through the many (now closed) threads on this discussion that's what it's really always been about. People aren't trying to attack the benefits V-class bracing will bring to certain players who like what it does, but instead we are just trying to defend the traditional builders and counter this ridiculous notion that the X-braced guitar is no longer relevant.

Through the words of their reps and artist endorsements hired for the NAMM live stream videos, through their official YouTube videos and more recently through their third-party dealer showcase videos and road show events the message is "this is superior to anything before it" and that message is presented without any context for play style or individual preference when it comes to the tonal character. It's presented with pseudo Science verbiage (see video sample from road show event in this thread) as fact. The message is "everything before this is inferior". While it's not stated directly it's implied by what is stated and the companies planned actions. When Taylor put together their marketing strategy they had a choice on verbiage and overall approach. Someone could have stood up and said "look we believe in V-class bracing, we are going to unify our lineup behind this innovation, but we also want to pay respect to what's come before. We want to invite players who love more traditional guitars to give this a try and maybe they will like it and hear what we hear". It's all in the way THEY decided to handle this. The approach they decided to take seems if they intended to disrespect more traditional players.
That would have been a more graceful approach instead of claiming "this new bracing pattern changes everything". It's as if they intended to incense the more traditional crowd. You can market something and take a bit of humility in your approach, paying respect to tradition or go down a more arrogant path with a message. When you're in a market with so much rooted in traditional thinking I think they made a huge mistake. As has been said by others what works for automakers and cell phone manufactures doesn't work so well for guitars.

These sort of discussions can go on for pages, I don't intend to keep rehashing the same things... We can disagree.

[hamburg325]

It's pretty clear that the V-Class introduction has been a "market-freezing" event, in that X-Class guitars have been essentially positioned as inferior. Knowing about V-Class, who would currently purchase an X-Class, especially a pricey one.

However, there's also the possibility that V-Class will be Taylor's New Coke. Change–especially of the radical variety–is not always good.

[JohnW63]

a decision was made "V-Class bracing is the best decision for our business moving forward".

And here you STILL think it is not a guitar building design change from the people that play and build guitars, but from some purely business marketing stance. As if the guys designing guitars for Taylor are being lead about by the business people. Why ?

Someone could have stood up and said "look we believe in V-class bracing, we are going to unify our lineup behind this innovation, but we also want to pay respect to what's come before.

Again, why is this necessary ? The world is crammed full of X braced guitars. We all KNOW they are the most popular bracing pattern in flat top guitars. And what method of paying respect to older guitar designs would have made you not think they are a bunch of liars about this ? I must conclude because you don't think this change makes a better sounding and playing guitar, that Taylor doesn't think so either, so they must have ulterior motives for changing everything.

[Wags]

I'm glad that Taylor is using it's resources to try and advance guitar design and performance. I also agree that Taylor is the most consistent in their guitars - probably the only big mfr I'd consider for an online purchase. I tried their v-braced guitars at the local Show and thought they were fine, really beautifully made. I still dig my 814ce dlx. Best guitar I've ever owned. Before I bought it I went back in at least 6 times to play it again. This switch to v-bracing might just increase it's value over time. Seems like there will be two camps, V & X.

[gitarro]

I suspect Taylor will be forced to backtrack on their intention to replace all their x braced guitars with their v braced guitars as they have with one stroke antagonised many of their own customers who have learned to love their x braced guitars. It is a.staggeringly risky move - either they succeed in converting all their existing customers or they will get a backlash the likes of which will sink their entire guitar line and force them to humiliatingly scrap their plans and bring back the x braced guitar. Personally it was completely unnecessary for them to have done this. It would have been so much less of a slap in the face of their own loyalists and less risky for them to gradually introduce it without the claims that it is so muxh better than the existing line (whixh damages their own goodwill) and to gauge the customer reaction and adapt accordingly over time.

[joebloggs]

Originally Posted by gitarro

I suspect Taylor will be forced to backtrack on their intention to replace all their x braced guitars with their v braced guitars as they have with one stroke antagonised many of their own customers who have learned to love their x braced guitars. It is a.staggeringly risky move - either they succeed in converting all their existing customers or they will get a backlash the likes of which will sink their entire guitar line and force them to humiliatingly scrap their plans and bring back the x braced guitar. Personally it was completely unnecessary for them to have done this. It would have been so much less of a slap in the face of their own loyalists and less risky for them to gradually introduce it without the claims that it is so muxh better than the existing line (whixh damages their own goodwill) and to gauge the customer reaction and adapt accordingly over time.

I agree. Blanket statements like that never go over well.

[Mobile1]

I'd buy one of the new V class guitars but I'm too old to buy a new guitar. I'll be dead before it really starts to open up.

I think I'll just keep my nicely aged Martins.

[Tony Burns]

Rmz76 -quite possibly the best review Ive ever read- easy to understand , well written without bias -I even like your comparisons -- BRAVO !

[SJ VanSandt]

I played one the other day (didn't pay attention to the model - sorry). Sounded like a Taylor to me. A decent mass-produced guitar without much character, to my ears. I can think of dozens of makers who make a better sounding guitar, and I don't think the new bracing moved them up the queue at all, much less to the head of the line.

[lodi_55]

Originally Posted by SJ VanSandt

I played one the other day (didn't pay attention to the model - sorry). Sounded like a Taylor to me. A decent mass-produced guitar without much character, to my ears. I can think of dozens of makers who make a better sounding guitar, and I don't think the new bracing moved them up the queue at all, much less to the head of the line.

Not everyone will be a fan of Taylors or "mass produced" guitars.

In my opinion, your "review" speaks more about your general dislike for the brand than anything else.

[Paddy1951]

Taylor would have been smart to approach their V Class models as being different but not necessarily better.

Larrivee did this with their Legacy models. Realizing that some players wanted a bit of a traditional sound, they came up with a different sounding guitar, but they didn't say or market them as better- just another choice. Some Larrivee players like the new models, others like the original Larrivee sound.

[Neil K Walk]

Originally Posted by Paddy1951

Taylor would have been smart to approach their V Class models as being different but not necessarily better.

Larrivee did this with their Legacy models. Realizing that some players wanted a bit of a traditional sound, they came up with a different sounding guitar, but they didn't say or market them as better- just another choice. Some Larrivee players like the new models, others like the original Larrivee sound.

That's a very good point. Personally, I like the old maxim of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." OTOH, having a lot of options is a good thing.