ES2- How is it an "upgrade"?

vindibona1 · #1 10-07-2017, 08:49 PM

Since buying my 814ceDLX I've never really been happy with it. Lots of little annoyances from batter size in their battery holder to hum under certain circumstances. I've been told (from GF) that my sound at my regular gig was "scratchy", something that she doesn't hear with my other guitars.

While I was on the phone with Taylor with other issues I inquired about the ES2 system vs the ES1 and got an explanation of how the systems are different. The ES1 had a pickup under the neck and pickup sensor on the body. The ES1 can be used as a balanced input (however that applies to guitars). You can also switch off the body sensor on the preamp board. The ES2 otoh has 1 piezo pickup that attaches underneath the saddle, pressing into the saddle from the side (as opposed to having it underneath like most piezos do). There is no second pickup to switch off and the signal is unbalanced (as it was explained to me).

The bottom line, with both the amp I have at home and the house system I get plugged into, the ES1 sounds miles better than the ES2, though acoustically my 814 is excellent. In other words, the ES2 in no way seems to represent the "natural sound" of the guitar while the ES1 gets pretty close.

Perhaps it may be important to note that I am not a fan of the sound of piezo pickups. My buddy has a D35 with an undersaddle pickup and every time he plugs in it sounds like he's put an ice-pick in my ear.

Can someone please explain to me how the ES2 is an "upgrade"???? [ I'm truly not trolling here.] I know there are some folks that really like the ES2 and I am interesting in knowing what I'm missing. With two pickups and balanced output with the ES1(amongst having a batter holder that isn't too small for any of my 9'vs) I don't see any features in the ES2 that would tell me that it is an improvement over the ES1.

Thanks for your input.

mrgraveline · #2 10-08-2017, 12:58 AM

I have Taylors with both ES1 and ES2. I also have and have owned many guitars with under-saddle piezo pick-ups. Like you, I don't like the sound of under saddle piezos. I was at an open mic years ago and watched 5 players in a row with guitars ranging from a Taylor 200 series, to a $200 Fender acoustic, to a Martin D28 all plug in, and all basically sound exactly the same. I knew then under saddle piezos are not great at showing the true sound of an acoustic guitar at high volumes.

ES1 - I have 3 Taylors with the ES1 system. When I play by myself, through small amps at home... This is my favorite system ever. It is warm, round, and I really have grown to "know" this sound.... However.... When I play with others... or perform on a small stage (I don't ever perform on any other kind of stage... which is likely a good thing), this is where I have problems. My sound gets totally lost. I end up trying to EQ myself to cut through more, and that tone which I love at home... is gone. I have heard back sound board recordings, room mic recordings, etc... I sabotage my tone with the ES1 trying to get the sound to "stand out". Drives me crazy. AND, the level of my ES1 guitars is SO much lower through a mic cable, sound guys (or me) have to boost the line level way up, which in an open mic scenario... is not ideal.

ES2 - I have a new style 816ce with ES2. I didn't buy the guitar because of the pickup (most don't I am guessing?), but rather the unplugged sound. It's literally the greatest guitar I have ever owned or been able to play at length. I wanted a smaller guitars... I wanted a fancy 914ce... but when I played this guitar... I had to own it. When I first played it plugged in, my heart sank. Through my Fishman loudbox amp in my living room, it sounded shrill, harsh, and just kinda... bad. I was so bummed. Then I thought it must have a problem. I called Taylor and one of their service reps walked me through a couple things.

1.My amp was set (eq knobs) for my ES1 guitars. Just like you wouldn't have the exact same settings for a Les Paul and a Strat on an amp, you probably should adjust based on the acoustic pickup you are using. That helped quite a bit.... but.... still.. Kind of shrill...

2. He had me get a small allen wrench that fits in the pickup screws that you can see behind the saddle. He had me turn the screw that was between the treble strings counter clockwise JUST A LITTLE BIT. Maybe a 1/16 turn... AND BAM.... Problem totally solved. Then I dialed the map in some more, and I haven't really ever looked back. The screw was pressing the element into the back of the saddle too much.

Does it sound like the ES1 guitars I have? No... I think it sounds more realistic and more like when I place a really nice microphone right off the sound hole. I hear everything... fingers noise on strings, taps on the top of the guitars... I get all the feedback of the guitar... which I really like. The ES1 has a very specific "sound" of it's own... The ES2 is way more WIDE OPEN. You can dial in what you want as you now have all the sound... ES1 kinda force feeds you a sound, and it is really hard to fix that sound if needed.

So to take a long time to answer you question... I think the sound is an upgrade. I think the ES1 was a great concept, that was trying to solve the piezo problem... under saddle pick ups kinda all sound the same... and not great. ES2 seems to be a pick up that gives the player a really accurate and wide open sound of the guitar in a less complicated manner.

So... I don't know if any of that helps you, but that has been my journey with the ES2. I also like to use a small EQ pedal when I play live, since every venue is so different, and sometimes I just need a small boost in the upper mids or a cut in the lows to "clean up the sound"....

AndrewG · #3 10-08-2017, 03:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vindibona1

Since buying my 814ceDLX I've never really been happy with it. Lots of little annoyances from batter size in their battery holder to hum under certain circumstances. I've been told (from GF) that my sound at my regular gig was "scratchy", something that she doesn't hear with my other guitars.

While I was on the phone with Taylor with other issues I inquired about the ES2 system vs the ES1 and got an explanation of how the systems are different. The ES1 had a pickup under the neck and pickup sensor on the body. The ES1 can be used as a balanced input (however that applies to guitars). You can also switch off the body sensor on the preamp board. The ES2 otoh has 1 piezo pickup that attaches underneath the saddle, pressing into the saddle from the side (as opposed to having it underneath like most piezos do). There is no second pickup to switch off and the signal is unbalanced (as it was explained to me).

The bottom line, with both the amp I have at home and the house system I get plugged into, the ES1 sounds miles better than the ES2, though acoustically my 814 is excellent. In other words, the ES2 in no way seems to represent the "natural sound" of the guitar while the ES1 gets pretty close.

Perhaps it may be important to note that I am not a fan of the sound of piezo pickups. My buddy has a D35 with an undersaddle pickup and every time he plugs in it sounds like he's put an ice-pick in my ear.

Can someone please explain to me how the ES2 is an "upgrade"???? [ I'm truly not trolling here.] I know there are some folks that really like the ES2 and I am interesting in knowing what I'm missing. With two pickups and balanced output with the ES1(amongst having a batter holder that isn't too small for any of my 9'vs) I don't see any features in the ES2 that would tell me that it is an improvement over the ES1.

Thanks for your input.

Try an external preamp maybe? Onboard systems seldom sound good on their own run straight into a PA.

vindibona1 · #4 10-08-2017, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrgraveline

...I called Taylor and one of their service reps walked me through a couple things...2. He had me get a small allen wrench that fits in the pickup screws that you can see behind the saddle. He had me turn the screw that was between the treble strings counter clockwise JUST A LITTLE BIT. Maybe a 1/16 turn... AND BAM.... Problem totally solved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndrewG

Try an external preamp maybe? Onboard systems seldom sound good on their own run straight into a PA.

Both excellent suggestions. I don't have a fancy preamp; just a Baggs GigPro pack with the basics.

It will be a few days before I can try it because my new 4 month old 814ceDLX is in for a fret level! Yeah, can you believe that Taylor sent out a new $4,000 guitar with unlevel frets(between the 10th and 14th fret)! Luckily the authorized technician is only 10 minutes away and he'll have it done in a couple days.

Again, thanks for the advise.

pieterh · #5 10-08-2017, 10:42 AM

Going to chip in here. I've done the change from ES1.1 to ES1.3 to ES2. My problem with the ES1 in any iteration is the magnetic character from the neck pickup which dominates the tone when playing anywhere above the fourth fret or so. I heard the ES2 at Frankfurt Musikmesse a couple of years ago and was sold on it.

I have also heard that it can be a bit harsh or not as natural as one would wish but that subtle adjustments of the hex screws usually sorts it out.

A good external preamp will help though isn't essential - I use mine sometimes direct into a powered speaker and it sounds fine.

Shades of Blue · #6 10-08-2017, 11:59 AM

I honestly have no issues with my ES2, other than the fact that I really don't want it. At the time, it was just cheaper, yes cheaper, to get the guitar with the electronics. The few times I've used it have been through my monitors at home and I think it sounds pretty darn good actually, much better than a straight UST that come stock in some guitars.

I think the problem with the ES2 is that some people run the bass to high. Tame the highs, lower the bass, and let the sound man take care of the mids.

SongwriterFan · #7 10-08-2017, 12:58 PM

The only real "issue" with the ES1 is that most sound guys don't understand it. Sorta like trying to use a microphone other than an SM58 with most sound guys.

L20A · #8 10-08-2017, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

The only real "issue" with the ES1 is that most sound guys don't understand it. Sorta like trying to use a microphone other than an SM58 with most sound guys.

Which is why I use a SM-58 vocal and a SM-57 instrument mic.
No electronics for me.

rokdog49 · #9 10-08-2017, 07:28 PM

My only comment is that all UST's don't sound alike.

troggg · #10 10-08-2017, 08:07 PM

Because it takes the wood out of the guitar when you're playing through a good amp in that a $800 used 214 CE DLX can sound as good and sometimes better depending on the particular guitars than their prettiest $5,000 John Petrucci or whatever models. It levels the field.

I just sprung for a pricey Mesa Rosette because I couldn't believe how good a 214 CE DLX with ES2 sounded through it. And I know for a fact Mesa used ES2 systems when developing and testing the Rosette.

As I think others have or will tell you, sometimes ES2 systems need tiny adjustments which are well documented but the one I tried hadn't had any.

Petty1818 · #11 10-08-2017, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SongwriterFan

The only real "issue" with the ES1 is that most sound guys don't understand it. Sorta like trying to use a microphone other than an SM58 with most sound guys.

Could you explain this a bit more? What exactly is there to understand about the ES1? IMO the real issue is that the ES1 was not a well executed system, which is why Taylor released three versions of it. They never got it right, which is why we now have the ES2.

SpruceTop · #12 10-09-2017, 08:06 AM

I like the ES2 and don't have any issues with it.

Petty1818 · #13 10-09-2017, 08:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

I like the ES2 and don't have any issues with it.

It is a very nice system. My only complaints have to do with the adjustment screws and the fact that I wish there was another source to blend in. First, the adjustment screws are neat and I get their purpose but it does seem that people have varying experiences based on how the adjustments have been made. If Taylor could find a way to make the ES2 a bit more consistent, it would be great. I feel like if I ever removed the saddle, I would hate trying to dial it back in.

Second, the ES2 is a fairly warm sounding pickup. It does have the microphone like quality but being able to dial in a second source like an internal mic for more high end would be great. I am not sure if a mic would be the answer but the pickup does need a bit more bite at times.

Still, Taylor have finally offered a very good system and there's no denying that it's pretty easy to set up in a live setting. If it wasn't such a huge pain to get one installed, I would have put one into my Taylor by now.

Groberts · #14 10-09-2017, 08:51 AM

I had two Taylors with the ES2 and I thought it sounded infinitely more 'natural' and acoustic than the ES1. BUT ....after some time I came to find string/fingerboard squeak is extremely pronounced and bothersome. I also found it highly prone to feedback. I normally left the onboard bass EQ knob at its center detent or slightly less.

I also tried an external preamp and it really didn't make the ES2 sound better. The only thing I really gained from using a Fishman Platinum Pro EQ external preamp was notch filtering and a compressor. (and a clean boost switch) But tonally, the External preamp was not a magic bullet.

SpruceTop · #15 10-09-2017, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Petty1818

It is a very nice system. My only complaints have to do with the adjustment screws and the fact that I wish there was another source to blend in. First, the adjustment screws are neat and I get their purpose but it does seem that people have varying experiences based on how the adjustments have been made. If Taylor could find a way to make the ES2 a bit more consistent, it would be great. I feel like if I ever removed the saddle, I would hate trying to dial it back in.

Second, the ES2 is a fairly warm sounding pickup. It does have the microphone like quality but being able to dial in a second source like an internal mic for more high end would be great. I am not sure if a mic would be the answer but the pickup does need a bit more bite at times.

Still, Taylor have finally offered a very good system and there's no denying that it's pretty easy to set up in a live setting. If it wasn't such a huge pain to get one installed, I would have put one into my Taylor by now.

Adjusting the ES2 Allen-head screws is easy as there are only about two turns to each one of them from being fully engaged to being away from the saddle for its removal and replacement. In the space of a quarter-turn or so after replacing the saddle, the pickups are either engaged or not and the tonality change after barely engaging the pickups to full clockwise screw pressure is rather subtle. Just for the heck of it, I've removed and replaced the ES2 sensor array in my Taylor 618e a couple of times to look at the array and play with the Allen-screw tonal adjustments and repeatability of previous tone was easy.