Congratulations to those who fretted their own guitars...

[Jackknifegypsy]

I bought a half dozen thin bladed saws at H D that I used calipers on to see how closely they matched the tang on the Stew-Mac fret wire.

I have been using a coping saw for several days as per my earlier attempts to make consistent fret slots that are just snug enough to hold the fret without any other help.

That proved fruitless, as did using the saw you suggested for other applications, as did a hack saw, keyhole saw, and Buck pull saw.

So. Along with all the saws I bought, i also calipered the Buck coping saw blades in the 5 pak and they were so close to the Stew-Mac fret, i brought them home.

I took a piece of oak, made a fence that held tight to the blade, and cut the oak the depth of the coping saw blade (which I knew would be a little deeper than the fret), bent the fret wires as described above and 4 dead hammer blows and bingo, perfect fit, plumb, level, and square.
Duped it three more times on other woods. I'm returning the other $50 worth of saws tomorrow, cancelled the jig and fret saw from LmI.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Jackknifegypsy

cancelled the jig and fret saw from LmI.

You cancelled the one saw (and jig) from your list that is actually made for that purpose and has been successfully used by many people to do the job? Instead you're going to make straight saw cuts with a saw designed to cut curves? I'm having a bit of trouble following your logic. That's okay: it doesn't matter if I can or not.

Again, I admire your creativity and willingness to be a pioneer, to create your own methods without the burden of convention.

[Jackknifegypsy]

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=4L2CD...%3D4L2CD-x97-o

I'm not a pioneer, just emulating others.

[charles Tauber]

The caption that goes with the video states: "This is how I put frets on a fretboard. I'm building a cigar box guitar, and this is my first time doing it."

17 viewers gave it a thumbs-up, 7 gave it a thumbs-down.

He starts the fret slot with a hacksaw, which he states is too wide for the fret slot, then switches to a coping saw, commenting, "A lotta people will tell ya' ya need special tools; I don't believe that for a second..." And watching him, I believe him: one can duplicate the quality of the job he's doing using the tools and techniques he has used.

I'll just say that that isn't the source I'd use to teach myself that skill, and leave it at that.

[John Arnold]

Simply because it is not designed to cut straight, a coping saw would not be my first choice to cut fret slots. Even if the slot is acceptably straight along its length, there is a good chance the slot won't be perfectly vertical.
On the first few fingerboards I slotted, I used a hack saw blade that had been ground thinner, and clamped between two small steel plates. This held the blade rigid, and set the depth of cut. Although it was slow, it did a good job.
There are plenty of thin back saws around that have a 0.023" kerf, but you may have to do a bit of searching.
I have always favored cutting fret slots by the table saw method (fingerboard face down), and before I had one, I built a miniature table saw from plywood that was sized just for fret slotting. It had a 2" diameter slitting saw blade. The miter gauge was adjustable, so that tapered fingerboards could be slotted. The scale was mounted on the long miter gauge, with a pointer attached to the back of the fingerboard. That saw still works fine to this day (35 years later), but I have moved on to a full-size table saw that I acquired to build kitchen cabinets in the late-1970's. I made a long miter gauge crossbar to mount the fret scale on, and I used a 7 1/4" hollow ground plywood blade that was thin rim ground at a saw shop (0.023" thick by 1/2" deep). As I recall, the total cost of the blade plus the grinding was less than $20. In my experience, this blade will slot several hundred fingerboards before it needs to be resharpened or replaced. The blades that Stew Mac sells today are essentially the same, but only 6" in diameter.

This is not an elaborate setup....put on the blade, attach the long crossbar with the fret scale to the miter gauge, and adjust the angle for the fretboard taper. Mark the location of the nut on the blank, align with the blade, and attach the pointer to the fingerboard with masking tape. After that, it takes about 2 1/2 minutes to slot a fingerboard.

[Jackknifegypsy]

If he and I are placing the frets square, plumb, and level, how is that not skillful as well as conventional methods?

I seem to recall an earlier post in your extensive primer on luthiery that you improvised whenever you wanted to.

How is this any different?

I can't imagine placing these frets any more accurately using a jig, and a fret saw that matches the wire. (Which these coping saw blades accidentally do).

[Jackknifegypsy]

I have a full shop, w/ Powermatic table saw so should be able to copy your method,if I were to prepare more than about 25 fretboards, but my plan isn't that robust.

I can use $20 of coping saw blades to now cut 500 fret slots beginning today, no more setup necessary.

On purely yeoman principles I'd love to do a set up like yours. But it would be overkill.

[Tom West]

Jack old buddy, I starting to think you are just having a bit of fun with the folks. If your not, without malice I would suggest that this guitar stuff may not be your strong point.
Tom

[John Arnold]

I seem to recall an earlier post in your extensive primer on luthiery that you improvised whenever you wanted to.

How is this any different?

Improvising and doing everything the hard way are not necessarily the same.

You seem to favor the latter, and then wonder why it doesn't work better.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Jackknifegypsy

If he and I are placing the frets square, plumb, and level, how is that not skillful as well as conventional methods?

To begin with, using an oversize-kerf hacksaw will destroy the datum to which the frets will be installed to ensure they are installed "level". If you look carefully, you'll see that the gentleman in the video has fully seated the fret with his fingers: there was no need for him to whack it with a hammer. That fret isn't going to stay in, unless glued. (If he/you want to glue it, sure, that's one way of doing it.)

I seem to recall an earlier post in your extensive primer on luthiery that you improvised whenever you wanted to.

Then you didn't read my "extensive primer" very well. There is no improvisation. What I've described is a very methodical approach and given reasons for that approach.

How is this any different?

I don't think I can add anything further, while still being kind, to what John wrote: "Improvising and doing everything the hard way are not necessarily the same."

I can't imagine placing these frets any more accurately using a jig, and a fret saw that matches the wire. (Which these coping saw blades accidentally do).

I can, easily. In my very early days, I had a high-end guitar store reject one of my instruments because one of the higher frets wasn't placed accurately. If you want good intonation, the frets need to be dead-on in their placement. Since then, I've used a tablesaw arrangement, much as John describes. In the near future, I'll use a CNC machine.

Originally Posted by John Arnold

Improvising and doing everything the hard way are not necessarily the same.

I just found my "quote of the week" to email to all my engineer friends.

[redir]

I actually used a coping saw on my very first guitar. That was 22 years ago. I didn't know what I was doing, never even heard of LMI, and it worked. Of course once I learned more about the craft I got the right tools for the job and the evolution process got me to the point where I just buy preslotted boards unless it's an odd scale length or wood that is not commonly available from suppliers.

I also used a belt sander to shape this first (electric) guitar.

I did a lot of stupid things

If you plan on building more guitars then you are going to want to get the right tools for the job. Not only are they time and money savers but your quality goes exponentially up. If this is your first one and it's a one off then maybe it won't make much of a difference. But you are at a stage in the construction of the guitar that really makes or brakes it. You can build an awkward looking non symmetrical box, you can have tool marks left in the head stock, you can have tear out along the rosette and binding channels and so on but if your frets are not in place properly then it's a junker.

[Jackknifegypsy]

I wrote earlier that I was becoming convinced that I could not build my own guitar and have it be as well done as several that I bought, but wanted to give it a go by doing unholy things to old guitars that I'm rehabbing, from simple string replacement, reducing weight, bracing, and exchanging old floating bridges with pinless ones, as well as saddles, nuts and tuners.

I have successfully removed and replaced backs, tops, and necks. Made my own ones out of old flooring, spruce, mahogany, and other hard and soft woods.

These were all major modifications on the sides (all that remained of several) of guitars that were intact.

Getting further into the smaller but very precise aspects I encountered the beginning of what I think are my limitations, and confirm for me that a build of my own is doable but will wind up a poor instrument.

I had no intention of building many guitars at the outset. I am not a luthier. I wouldn't expect to be after only several months of no formal training, and a track record of impatience.

In the areas of intonation, saddle placement accuracy (I mean, really, 1/32 of an inch can ruin an entire build???) now fret slotting and dead on precision------suffice to say that as Tom West above says, this is likely my Waterloo. But one that I fully expected given these challenges and the time I am willing to devote to this project.

MEANWHILE,
I have found that a lighter gauge of fret wire does not respond well to the coping saw/hacksaw technique. The wire, no matter how well i arc it, reverses when struck with a dead blow hammer. So this is a fail. John's setup using the table saw and kerf blade is looking more fruitful by the minute, and Charles is right again about the precision that cannot be matched using that method, as a standard, everyday approach to building.

I will complete the one fretboard using the coping saw on the medium fret wire since I am far down the line but I'm going to modify my post to this method.

Thanks again for all your input, and I will retire the innovative but "Hard way".

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by Jackknifegypsy

I had no intention of building many guitars at the outset. I am not a luthier. I wouldn't expect to be after only several months of no formal training, and a track record of impatience.

Heya, JackKnife. I love the last sentence of the above quote. It is good that you retain your humour in the midst of the onslaught of advice and sometimes strong suggestions that you are going about things in a less than ideal fashion. Good on you, and I admire you for this.

I, myself, have an Irwin brand Japanese style flush cut saw - flexible blade, no set to the teeth, one edge has single cut rough teeth (good for hardwood) and the other edge has reverse bevelled finer teeth (good for softwood). The blade is approximately 0.4~0.5mm, which works very well with the fret wire I presently use. A Japanese flush cut saw has a flexible blade but cuts very cleanly, so I made my own mitre with a pre-cut fingerboard that didn't meet my quality control standards for use on a guitar. Even with this mitre, I clamp a square to use as a guide as I cut each slot, and place the saw blade along this with another flat piece of wood hand-held to keep the blade stable as I cut. This is more time consuming than using a table saw with a jig, but it is effective and accurate. I plan to build a different mitre that is a bit deeper to avoid the necessity of clamping the square block. It should bring my fret slotting time very close to that of a table saw method.

Good luck on your endeavours, and keep it going as you see fit, but be sure to discriminate between good advice from highly skilled craftsman and rough hobbyist's advice (ie: the cigar box man's fret slotting method).

[John Arnold]

I mean, really, 1/32 of an inch can ruin an entire build???

When you are talking fret placement, 0.005" can ruin it. This is some of the mosty exacting tolerance in woodworking. The tolerance you cited is more appropriate for a cabinetmaker...a job I did for a few years in the early-1980's.