Travis picking: how long's it gonna take

[SprintBob]

Originally Posted by reeve21

Hi Shortfinger,

Your post reminds me of myself this winter. I had no idea what I was getting into or what to expect for progress. Maybe my experience will be a guide for what to expect. FYI, I practice Travis an hour or 2 at a stretch, 5 or 6 times a week. I also try and pick up the guitar for 5 to 10 minute stretches a few times a day when I can. I was a strummer for a long time before jumping down this mineshaft....

I'm only a few months into Travis and I'm still very much getting the hang of it. Alternating bass came in a couple of days, working in some treble within a week. Multi-string pinches came shortly after that. Syncopated or off the beat treble notes probably within a month. But as many have said it really is a journey, not a destination, and it's not like I can pick up a piece of tab and sight read it the first time through (or the 50th!).

The two best resources for me have been Mark Hanson's Intro to Travis Picking Book and CD (I'm usually a book type of learner) and Toby Walker's intro to fingerpicking lesson pack. He mentions using a well known melody, and I have been working on his arrangement of Oh Susanna for a few weeks now. I can finally play it all the way through at a reasonable tempo, but I'll bet I have a good 20-25 hours into what I thought would be a very simple piece! Toby also recommends memorizing the pieces and I have been doing that with the 5 or so tunes I can play cleanly, I think it is a big help.

I hope you are a faster learner than I am :-)

+1 on Mark Hanson's material or Toby Walker's material (their musical styles are different and you may like both or prefer one over the other). There is good additional material on both Homespun and TrueFire that offer better structure and organization than a lot of what is on YT. Advise patience, seems like you are expecting a lot of yourself in a short timeframe. I think it is a lot easier to make steady progress with a structured course versus bouncing around with the YT material. There is such a volume on YT, it can seem overwhelming thus you may get in a rut easier. Good luck, enjoy your fingerstyle journey.

[s0cks]

Originally Posted by Pitar

The actual style itself I learned quickly and practiced it so much it became almost irritating in its repetitiveness. No, it did become irritating because I remember changing the syncopation to relieve it a bit. I think it was because of its repetitiveness that I broke out of it, began working out other dynamics and made advancements out of sheer boredom with it.

I've been feeling this way myself. I started out on Travis alternating bass style when I began fingerpicking. It was good, but the repetitive alternating bass has worn thin on me. Recently I've moved away from that style and instead I try to hit the bass note on atleast the first downbeat and play other notes in the chord for the rest of the bar (while maintaining the melody of course). This gives me far more musical options, and imo, sounds better too - less repetitive.

As for how long Travis style took me. A long time. My first song with a melody, Blowin in the Wind, took me 3 months just to get it down in a rough manner. It took me a good 6+ months to improve my rhythm with fingerstyle to the point it sounded good. And probably another 6+ months to fix bad habits and use proper technique (still ongoing).

No regrets though. I freaking love fingerstyle.

And if it's any help, I found that learning to play a scale over alternating bass helped free my right hand up a bit more. For example, playing G and D for the alternating bass on the 6th and 4th strings, then walking up and down from the open G on the 3rd string, like so:

-----------0-2-3-2-0-----------
-----0-1-3-----------3-1-0-----
-0-2-----------------------2-0-
-----0-------0-------0-------0-
-------------------------------
-3-------3-------3-------3-----

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Shortfinger

I'm the OP. I'm a long time strummer but have learned a little fingerstyle. I can sort of play the Chet Atkins version of Scott Joplin's "The Entertainer," and just taught myself Paul McCartney's "Blackbird."

If you can do those, I'd say you're pretty much there.
Atkins version of The Entertainer is quite advanced Travis picking - at leas it requires a solid handle on the technique to play most of it. (So maybe it depends what you mean by "sort of..." )
"Blackbird" is a kind of lazier version of the technique. John Lennon mastered it better (Dear Prudence, Julia).

Originally Posted by Shortfinger

I want to do Lyle Lovett's "Closing Time," and when realizing it was done Travis-style, finally decided to bite the bullet and learn.

Nice example - a lot simpler than "The Entertainer", and I'd say similar technical level to Blackbird (maybe easier).
I'd call it a straightahead example of conventional alternating bass [AB] technique. (It's not what I'd call "Travis style", because I see that as a particular kind of AB playing with damped bass, the bouncy country rhythm as used typically by Chet Atkins and Tommy Emmanuel. This is the gentler "folky" style, no damping, common in folk song accompaniment.

Originally Posted by Shortfinger

It's the syncopation that is going to take some time.

I don't hear any syncopation to speak of in it (as I'd define the term).
That is, the thumb bass is right on the beat all the way - and it's syncopated thumb strokes that can be tricky.
Some of the melody notes are syncopated, but that's natural once you have the basics of the technique down. (see below)

Anyway. assuming you are new to this kind of AB - despite your claim about The Entertainer - here's some starter exercises (in case you need them):

|-----------------|
|-----------------|
|---0---0---0---0-|
|-----------------|
|-----------------|
|-3---3---3---3---|
  T i T i T i T i
  1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &

That's to get used to the alternating thumb and finger. It could be any finger, doesn't have to be index; and it could pick any of the top 3 strings of a G shape. But keep the thumb on one string to begin with.

Ex.2 could be where you alternate thumb from 6 to 4. Take this real slow to sart with, just keep those 8ths even.

|-----------------|
|-----------------|
|---0---0---0---0-|
|-----0-------0---|
|-----------------|
|-3-------3-------|
  T i T i T i T i

- or you could keep the thumb on one on string, and try different strings with the finger(s). (Again, could be the same finger moving to other strings, or different fingers, it's up to you.)

|-----------------|
|-------0-------0-|
|---0-------0-----|
|-----------------|
|-----------------|
|-3---3---3---3---|
  T i T m T i T m

The next thing is to combine those - thumb and finger both moving between different strings. I've skipped a stage or two here to show a pattern which omits one finger stroke (the "and" of beat 1), and uses all 3 fingers. This pattern is playable with any one finger (or any two fingers) picking all 3 strings, but i-m-r as shown would be a classical allocation.

|---------------3-|
|-----------0-----|
|-------0---------|
|-----0-------0---|
|-----------------|
|-3-------3-------|
  T - T i T m T r

That's a standard AB pattern of the kind Lovett plays. He uses nothing more complicated than that.
The top G would be syncopated, but that only means the note sustains across the bar. You don't need to play it any differently, to put any special accent on it. It just comes between thumb strokes 4 and 1.

If you can play this, you've got it cracked. Experiment with changing the order of the top 3 strings. And finally try a pattern with a pinch stroke (this can throw some people):

|-3---------------|
|-----------0-----|
|-------0---------|
|-----0-------0---|
|-----------------|
|-3-------3-------|
  r
  T - T i T m T -

That's really the same as the previous pattern, but the top G is not now syncopated.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Anyway. ... - here's some starter exercises (in case you need them):

Nice review JonPR, thanks.

[Bikewer]

When I started playing back in the mid-70s, "Travis Picking" was pretty much what everyone did.
All my musician friends were old "folkies" from the tail end of the folk-revival period, and played Peter, Paul, and Mary stuff and Dylan and Bob Gibson and Dave Van Ronk and all those guys.

So I had plenty of exposure... I can't recall how long it took me to get that intitial pattern down, maybe a few months. But I do recall that one day it just "clicked" and I could do it reliably.
Didn't take too long before I was adding the little embellishments that make it more interesting, the bass runs to connect chords, the hammers and pulls, the little changes in the pattern.

[SunnyDee]

Just to add to what JonPR since he mentioned syncopation. This seems a good spot to emphasize how helpful it can be to count while learning this.

Here's JonPR's pattern skipping the & between 1 and 2 and "syncopating" the high G.

[CODE]
|---------------3-|
|-----------0-----|
|-------0---------|
|-----0-------0---|
|-----------------|
|-3-------3-------|
T - T i T m T r
1 - 2& 3 & 4 &

There's that 2(thumb)&(index) I mentioned earlier.

And JonPR's pinch pattern where the high G is not syncopated.

[CODE]
|-3---------------|
|-----------0-----|
|-------0---------|
|-----0-------0---|
|-----------------|
|-3-------3-------|
r
T - T i T m T -
1 - 2 &3 & 4

There's some research somewhere about hearing yourself count out loud that says there's a very strong tie between the language centers in the brain and the rhythm centers. I don't know, all I know is it seems to make it easy to pick up any new patterns or create one on the fly that fits the rhythm.

[lpa53]

Originally Posted by srick

BTW. Chet noted that he learned (when aa guitar wasn't in reach) by drumming his fingers.

I did that when I was first learning, too. I loved picking so much, I wanted to practice patterns even when a guitar wasn't available.

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by Shortfinger

I'm the OP. I'm a long time strummer but have learned a little fingerstyle. I can sort of play the Chet Atkins version of Scott Joplin's "The Entertainer," and just taught myself Paul McCartney's "Blackbird."

I want to do Lyle Lovett's "Closing Time," and when realizing it was done Travis-style, finally decided to bite the bullet and learn.

It's the syncopation that is going to take some time. And for the synco, I'm learning George Harrison's "Here Comes The Sun." Not Travis, but synco required.

Thanks for all the advice, everybody!

Just reviewing the thread and saw your post. Here's my take:

The pieces you've picked (sic) to learn are fairly advanced. I think most of us who learned back in the 60's started with tunes more associated with the alternating bass of Elizabeth Cottens "Freight Train" and John Hurts "Spike Drivers Blues". I'd recommend them highly as study pieces:

John Hurt

https://youtu.be/pongz6Vwnkg

Libba Cotten

https://youtu.be/43-UUeCa6Jw

Edit:

For more fun, check out John Jackson

https://youtu.be/hQImeX8QoAs

[lowrider]

Question for all of you finger-style converts. Did you go completely over to the dark side or do you still play with a pick?

I've been playing since Christmas and just recently, after seeing Toby Walker play, decided to learn. I practice every day for 2 hours or more with half or less being finger-style. I work on a few different things including Toby Walker's beginner program.

[s0cks]

Originally Posted by lowrider

Question for all of you finger-style converts. Did you go completely over to the dark side or do you still play with a pick?

I've been playing since Christmas and just recently, after seeing Toby Walker play, decided to learn. I practice every day for 2 hours or more with half or less being finger-style. I work on a few different things including Toby Walker's beginner program.

Always fingers. I haven't used a pick in years. There's just something awesome about not having to worry about a pick.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by lowrider

Question for all of you finger-style converts. Did you go completely over to the dark side or do you still play with a pick?

I've been playing since Christmas and just recently, after seeing Toby Walker play, decided to learn. I practice every day for 2 hours or more with half or less being finger-style. I work on a few different things including Toby Walker's beginner program.

I keep trying every now and then, but I still sorta hate a pick.

[reeve21]

Originally Posted by lowrider

Question for all of you finger-style converts. Did you go completely over to the dark side or do you still play with a pick?

I've been playing since Christmas and just recently, after seeing Toby Walker play, decided to learn. I practice every day for 2 hours or more with half or less being finger-style. I work on a few different things including Toby Walker's beginner program.

Played pick only for years.

I had to put it down pretty much cold turkey in order to get some basic fingerstyle under my belt.

I'm only 4 months or so into finger style, at this point I'm probably only using a pick about 10 per cent of the time.

There are situations where a pick works better for me:

1. Playing with others. I'm bare flesh only finger style and don't yet have enough oomph on the treble notes to be heard well in an un-amplified group setting.

2. Singing. Haven't yet figured out how to sing along to finger style!

3. Some songs just work better strummed. Sister Golden Hair comes to mind.

I'm not sure it is an either/or thing. Vince Gill does both pretty well :-)

[Niko Nixon]

JonPR. I'm new to fingerstyle and I understand your examples even though I can't play them all yet but what do you mean by syncopated? ?..

[rbriggs82]

Originally Posted by reeve21

Played pick only for years.

I had to put it down pretty much cold turkey in order to get some basic fingerstyle under my belt.

I'm only 4 months or so into finger style, at this point I'm probably only using a pick about 10 per cent of the time.

There are situations where a pick works better for me:

1. Playing with others. I'm bare flesh only finger style and don't yet have enough oomph on the treble notes to be heard well in an un-amplified group setting.

2. Singing. Haven't yet figured out how to sing along to finger style!

3. Some songs just work better strummed. Sister Golden Hair comes to mind.

I'm not sure it is an either/or thing. Vince Gill does both pretty well :-)

Singing and playing finger style is crazy hard. Last night for the first time I was able to sing house of the rising sun and Unchained Melody. Probably because the pattern is the same for both and about as easy as it can get but still it was amazing that out of nowhere I could do it. Guess all that practice is good for something.

[Bikewer]

Although I started out way back when with Travis picking, I became interested in bluegrass guitar early on and started to learn to flatpick almost at the same time.

Currently, I've been spending most all my time playing fingerstyle jazz (chord melody) on nylon-string guitars, but I still keep my flatpicking chops up. I'll dig out the steel string and run through a few 'grass tunes or fiddle tunes a couple of times a week.