#16
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I think what I was trying to say, not very articulately perhaps, that it is all a matter of degree. Whether we start young, old, or middle aged, we can get better. But talent, and I daresay inherent, in-born talent, makes a difference, in some cases a huge difference. Singing is a strange art form -- and by that I mean any non-operatic singing, since opera requires a "standard" -- because it can be a direct function of what I would call the artist's "presence." A well trainined soprano, with the proper range and good pitch control, can do a more than passable version of say, Habanera, from Carmen or any other famous aria. But NOBODY can sound like Leonard Cohen, or Tom Waits, or Johnny Cash, or early to mid-career Dylan. If the vast majority of the players on here, even if they studied hard, tried to be AS GOOD AS, or as ARTISTICALLY distinctive as them, we'd fail. We'd be OK, perhaps, or even pleasantly listenable, but that's about as good as it would get. Or Paul McCartney, a more "tranditional" vocalist. He wasn't great solely because he played 6 hours a night 6 days a week in some grungy German nightclub for nearly a year, though that certainly helped Why is this true? Because they all have a gift, and we don't. That doesn't mean we shouldn't sing, or play, or even take a stab at being professional for some. We can run, but we'll never be as fast Usain Bolt. We can play tennis, but we'd never take a game off of Roger Federer. We can act, but Daniel Day-Lewis will always be better.
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#17
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Talent or skill? Skill goes a long way.
Singing is a skill that can be learned, and like any other skill, it takes practice to get good at it and stay good at it. Yes, we all have different tools -- different-shaped larynxes and resonators (that's sinuses when they're off duty) -- but barring physical disability, we can all learn to use what we've got skillfully. Talent, whatever that is, isn't a prerequisite. Sing!
Someone like Bob Dylan or Neil Young may or may not be a skilled, trained musician, but no one can deny that they're great *interpreters* of a song. That's a whole different ball of wax. Every once in a while you get someone who's both a skilled, trained musician *and* a great interpreter of a song -- and that's when you get someone like Frank Sinatra. (One of the most beautiful things I've ever heard was an old record of Frank singing "O Little Town of Bethlehem" absolutely straight, no Nelson Riddle orchestra, like a choirboy back in Hoboken. Brought a tear to my eye, it did.) But back to people like you & me pickin' & grinnin' out on the back porch or wherever. All we need to do is lose the idea that only the talented are allowed to sing -- and then sing!
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#18
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#19
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So if I'm understanding this correctly, the years, decades I've spent wishing I could sing, I should have spent practicing singing, which would have made me a better singer? I don't know, sounds a bit wishy washy...
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#20
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I now like my voice and even get compliments. I am no spring chicken and realize that a future as a singer is unlikely but with some professional guidance and some persistence the joy of singing (well) is attainable, imho
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#21
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It's easy to assume a particular child prodigy "must have been born like it" (because we can't see how they could have learned it), but that assumption doesn't hold up to rational examination, any more than it does to the evidence. There may be a genetic component to superior skills (in any sphere), but the more you look at the evidence and the research, the more you discover how much is acquired, learned mostly in infancy. Still maybe not all, but more than you might think. The infant brain is an extraordinary organ, capable of learning an amazing amount of stuff. Moreover, there's an appealing theory - which seems to fit the facts - that the brain is actually equipped with much more potential than it will ever need. Childhood is then a process of jettisoning what doesn't seem important from day to day, and developing that which does. Paying attention and narrowing the focus. That makes sense from an evolutionary perspective. Evolution has produced the massive neo-cortex, making homo sapiens adaptable to way more environments than other animals. We are, in a sense, over-equipped, ready for anything that experience might throw at us from an early age. We can work it all out. If you like, the brain is like a huge computer, with an inbuilt operating system (instincts) - developed over millennia of evolution; but it's experience that writes the software. (Obviously it's more messy and organic than that.) That's how it makes sense that we could all be born with high musical potential (as part of aural perception and language learning), but most of us - in infancy, when it counts - aren't provided with the environment which would switch it on and develop it. So we lose it - or rather it atrophies slowly through disuse. The prodigy is an example, not of someone intensively reared or hot-housed, nor with unusual genetic inheritance; they're just someone who's managed to hang on to their full musical birthright, by experiencing music as important to their lives, right from the beginning. Music is as normal for them as speaking and walking is for the rest of us. My view is that, if we had had the same experience, we would be as "gifted", because we were born (pretty much) the same. I'm not saying everyone is a potential genius. Musical talent is a complex set of skills. It's much more than being able to pitch your voice accurately and hold a tune. It's a cultural thing. In the west, we demand a high level of musical skill from anyone who dares to call themselves a "musician"; and we tend to look down on people who treat music as a hobby. If you're not a professional, you're a time waster. (I'm exaggerating, but that's not an uncommon view.) Quote:
I agree, it's pointless to "try to be as good as them" - because they're being themselves. They didn't study to be like that! (Not in the way a classical singer studies technique.) I mean, they certainly studied, but that means copying all their own heroes while they were learning, and developing their own voice. Leonard Cohen was unusual, in fact, because he was a poet and novelist before he decided music would get him a bigger audience. He was never a great guitarist (FWIW) - he was competent, like the others. He wasn't even a great singer. He was just a great vocalist. Out of your four examples, Johnny Cash is the only one with a "good voice" in a generally agreed sense: a rich, well-rounded bass. The others are geniuses at delivering their songs. Dylan is probably the best of all - and I mean in all of pop/rock music - an extraordinarily expressive voice (it's deteriorated somewhat in recent times). All those idiots who used to say "Dylan can't sing" ... If we want to emulate any of them, what we need to do is be ourselves, as much as possible. We're often unaware of what that sounds like, of course, unaware that our voices actually have a unique character that can be developed and strengthened. In fact, one of the problem with guys trying to sing is that conventional rock vocals are high register - screaming tenors, like Robert Plant or Axl Rose. We know we can never match that. Our unpractised voices crack before we ever get near that range. The bass voices you mention (Dylan excepted) are all better heroes for the average dude. We just need to improve our pitching, breathing and control, that's all. Learn to sound like ourselves, only more so. Then - to match the success of guys like those - a much taller order - we need to work MUCH harder on our songwriting, and/or give up our day jobs, and/or tour the country gigging like maniacs for a decade or two. That's where it get hard! Vocal quality (or songwriting skill) is one thing (or two). There's stamina too; self-belief; commitment; intelligence; arrogance even. Oh yes, and starting young. (Cohen is the exception again there, but he just started young in a different artistic sphere. He was "too old" to be a pop success when he started singing, but he had a good USP: suave poet with sexy voice, understated charisma. The ideal sound for the intellectual student fan for whom Dylan was going through a bad patch at the time.) Quote:
Sometimes a whole mix of environmental factors come together at the same time and place. It doesn't rule out genetics, but any genetic component of talent is as likely to be in the personality, not in anything specifically musical. (I mean, outside the normal human level of innate musicality.)
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"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen. Last edited by JonPR; 08-11-2017 at 11:36 AM. |
#22
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The more I sing, the better I get. At first I would sing song that had lyrics that came in at the chord changes. Then more syncopated songs were my next challenge. It took a bit of effort and it introduced an offbeat nature to singing along to the guitar. Your ear develops as well. Practice maybe doesn't make perfect (for me) but it sure improves the ability. Why should it be any different for singing than it is for playing.
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#23
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I went through the greatest changes in my voice once I decided to actually try and do something about my voice, which I'd previously been less than satisfied with.
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#24
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Okay you want to try and sing. Here's what you do. Find a very basic song to experiment with. Like three chords. Now even though you can't sing you need to find the easiest key for you. So transpose it into several keys before you start. You don't want company or ears around so do this alone. Without pushing your voice try and find a key and a style of singing that may work. Now here's the important point. Listen to the guitar and your voice. If you are playing a G chord and you are close then try and adjust your voice to be in tune with it. If you listen you should be able to adjust your voice to be in tune with a basic G, C and D chord at least to hear a harmonizing occurring. If you can not tell if you are in tune or not then I'd suggest forgetting it. This is just to find a starting point. Good luck!
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