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Old 04-05-2016, 04:26 PM
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open-road-matt open-road-matt is offline
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Default Adding a Subwoofer

Hi AGF!
I'm wondering generally what improvements I might notice performance-wise out of my mains if I added one subwoofer.

My sales rep at Sweetwater said that since the sub would be handling the heavy lifting on the low end, I would notice an improvement sonically out of the mains.

The only sub(s) I've ever owned were part of my Bose L1 systems.

I'd like to test this out for myself but that will require me either ordering one (and possibly sending it back) or setting up a demo at a Guitar Center (nearest is 2.5 hours from me.)

My set up is solo acoustic guitar, a bit of ukulele on a handful of songs and vocals (male, baritone.) I used to use a Porchboard (a low end rhythm instrument) which I know would benefit from the sub.

I currently have 5 QSC speakers. 3 K10s and 2K8s. This is too many! I like different things about the 8s and the 10s.

The size of the 8s make them great for smaller spots, indoor shows, etc. They are very unobtrusive and have a bit more of a Bose-like quality in that they spread the sound more evenly throughout a space. The 8s put out a very impressive sound for such a small speaker....

Until I compare them directly to the 10s! The 10s have much more sonic space to the sound and I feel like my guitar and vocals have a really nice, natural separation with the 10s where as with the 8s they compete a bit for space.

So I've been using the 10s for outdoor shows and the 8s mostly indoors. When I'm doing a really small show I just use one 8.

My hope is that if I added a KSub to the mix it would help my 8s perform a bit more like my 10s with regard to clarity, sonic space, throw, etc. Then I could find a new home for the 10s and just go with the 8s. One for tiny shows, 2 for more coverage and then 2 plus the KSub for concerts in the park, larger shows, etc.

I do plan on testing this out for myself but I thought I'd check here and see if anyone has any thoughts.

Thanks!
Matt
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  #2  
Old 04-05-2016, 06:31 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by open-road-matt View Post
Hi AGF!
I'm wondering generally what improvements I might notice performance-wise out of my mains if I added one subwoofer.

My sales rep at Sweetwater said that since the sub would be handling the heavy lifting on the low end, I would notice an improvement sonically out of the mains.

The only sub(s) I've ever owned were part of my Bose L1 systems.

I'd like to test this out for myself but that will require me either ordering one (and possibly sending it back) or setting up a demo at a Guitar Center (nearest is 2.5 hours from me.)

My set up is solo acoustic guitar, a bit of ukulele on a handful of songs and vocals (male, baritone.) I used to use a Porchboard (a low end rhythm instrument) which I know would benefit from the sub.

I currently have 5 QSC speakers. 3 K10s and 2K8s. This is too many! I like different things about the 8s and the 10s.

The size of the 8s make them great for smaller spots, indoor shows, etc. They are very unobtrusive and have a bit more of a Bose-like quality in that they spread the sound more evenly throughout a space. The 8s put out a very impressive sound for such a small speaker....

Until I compare them directly to the 10s! The 10s have much more sonic space to the sound and I feel like my guitar and vocals have a really nice, natural separation with the 10s where as with the 8s they compete a bit for space.

So I've been using the 10s for outdoor shows and the 8s mostly indoors. When I'm doing a really small show I just use one 8.

My hope is that if I added a KSub to the mix it would help my 8s perform a bit more like my 10s with regard to clarity, sonic space, throw, etc. Then I could find a new home for the 10s and just go with the 8s. One for tiny shows, 2 for more coverage and then 2 plus the KSub for concerts in the park, larger shows, etc.

I do plan on testing this out for myself but I thought I'd check here and see if anyone has any thoughts.

Thanks!
Matt
You will probably find that with your set up, a sub will be overkill or you will have it set very low. I have a sub and two K12's. I never use the sub with my acoustic group unless we are running the bass direct or we have a percussionist. Even then, I find that the sub volume level is barely on as it can easily become too powerful. I would recommend K12's as they will give even more bottom end. If you do go for a sub, maybe look into smaller and more compact solutions. I think the Ksub would be more than you need but if you want to give it a shot then it's worth a try!
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Old 04-05-2016, 06:53 PM
Tomm Williams Tomm Williams is offline
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I don't see anything in your current set-up that justifies a sub.
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Old 04-05-2016, 07:03 PM
krisls krisls is offline
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Speaking as someone that uses a pair of K10's as my regular setup...

I had a chance almost a year ago now to play a duo gig with 4 K10's and a K Sub in a rather noisy Irish pub on a public Holiday. Absolutely fantastic sound. More in the sense of punch and feel than any real addition to basics. Vocals and guitars do not really need a sub as they simply don't get into that territory.

But I have to say that after doing that day I really started to fancy something similar and extra weight and cost and effort be ****ed. That said I still haven't gone further than my 2 K10's... not that I still don't fancy the idea mind.

Kris
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Old 04-05-2016, 08:29 PM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by open-road-matt View Post
Hi AGF!
I'm wondering generally what improvements I might notice performance-wise out of my mains if I added one subwoofer.

My sales rep at Sweetwater said that since the sub would be handling the heavy lifting on the low end, I would notice an improvement sonically out of the mains.

The only sub(s) I've ever owned were part of my Bose L1 systems.

I'd like to test this out for myself but that will require me either ordering one (and possibly sending it back) or setting up a demo at a Guitar Center (nearest is 2.5 hours from me.)

My set up is solo acoustic guitar, a bit of ukulele on a handful of songs and vocals (male, baritone.) I used to use a Porchboard (a low end rhythm instrument) which I know would benefit from the sub.

I currently have 5 QSC speakers. 3 K10s and 2K8s. This is too many! I like different things about the 8s and the 10s.

The size of the 8s make them great for smaller spots, indoor shows, etc. They are very unobtrusive and have a bit more of a Bose-like quality in that they spread the sound more evenly throughout a space. The 8s put out a very impressive sound for such a small speaker....

Until I compare them directly to the 10s! The 10s have much more sonic space to the sound and I feel like my guitar and vocals have a really nice, natural separation with the 10s where as with the 8s they compete a bit for space.

So I've been using the 10s for outdoor shows and the 8s mostly indoors. When I'm doing a really small show I just use one 8.

My hope is that if I added a KSub to the mix it would help my 8s perform a bit more like my 10s with regard to clarity, sonic space, throw, etc. Then I could find a new home for the 10s and just go with the 8s. One for tiny shows, 2 for more coverage and then 2 plus the KSub for concerts in the park, larger shows, etc.

I do plan on testing this out for myself but I thought I'd check here and see if anyone has any thoughts.

Thanks!
Matt
Matt,

I think a sub might/can be a very beneficial addition to your rig, especially those outdoor gigs that you've mentioned. A lot may depend on where you set the cross-over point. As I recall, the K-series tops use "DEEP* (DSP) to boost the bottom end (starting at 250Hz and down). In my experience with the K-*'s specifically, I found DEEP* had a very negative impact on vocal clarity. Adding an external sub would allow you to forget about DEEP*,,, maintaining clarity right down to where you set the external subs' cross-over. You'd have to experiment with this to see which sounds best to you. I don't recall the specific hi-pass position on the K-series boxes, but if memory serves, it's probably in the "External sub" circuit, and is probably somewhere between 100-125 Hz. You'd have to check the manual for specifics.

Now as far as the K-sub is concerned, the reviews among sub aficionados, has not been good. Many who've tried them, referred to them as "anemic". I'd recommend that you consider the Yorkville NX720P, or the Yorkville LS720P. They're both the same sub, with different cabinet finishes. These 15" subs are extremely well built, with excellent output despite their compact size. Very clean and tight/punchy bottom end, plus you have a sweep-able low-pass filter, and a variable bass-boost, which will allow you to fine tune it to your tops. I've been using mine (LS-720P's) for eight years now, with never a hiccup.
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Old 04-06-2016, 12:50 AM
krisls krisls is offline
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Quote "" Bobby 1 Note
"Now as far as the K-sub is concerned, the reviews among sub aficionados, has not been good. Many who've tried them, referred to them as "anemic". "

Well... I've read similar on the K Sub and personally after using one I don't agree at all. It might not be the biggest baddest punchiest sub about, but it's a good one. I think most of those negative reviews come from the Doof Doof DJ crowd who want rattle your chest bass.

Try this review http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr1...c-k10-ksub.htm

Kris
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Old 04-06-2016, 01:12 AM
midwinter midwinter is offline
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Do you play an instrument that is lower than the K8s/K10s can reproduce?
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Old 04-06-2016, 03:37 AM
Groovekings Groovekings is offline
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Default Try EV ZXA1 powered sub

I use two EV ZLX12p powered speakers with one 12 and a horn in each. Great for acoustic music and only 34 pounds. I also use the small ZXA1 powered sub when playing a large room or outdoors. They add the percussiveness plus take the heavy work off the tops and giving them the needed headroom to stay clean and clear. These subs weigh only 46 pounds each which is very light for a sub. They are not huge tub thumpers like a 15 or 18 would be but that is not required for acoustic music. The little bit if low end support makes a big difference. In small rooms or pubs I don't use them though as it is not necessary. Cheers
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Old 04-06-2016, 05:36 AM
open-road-matt's Avatar
open-road-matt open-road-matt is offline
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Default Adding a Subwoofer

Thanks for all the replies! I really appreciate it.

I'm doing this on my phone so I can't go back and look as I type to answer questions or reply to specific quotes but I'll do my best!

Petty1818: when you say you have to set the sub really low is that indoors?

I envision using the sub at my bigger outdoor shows (concert in the park type settings.) if a sub would be overkill or not worth the hassle I would probably stick with the 8s and 10s and use them as needed. I love the way the 10s sound, especially outdoors. I was hoping maybe a sub would let me get some/more of that sound out of the 8s.

Kris: fun to hear about how good the set up sounded with the KSub!

midwinter, the Porchboard I mentioned could benefit greatly from a sub. Here is a quote from their webpage:

"The Porchboard is designed to produce a tone in the 33-100 HZ range (very low). The 33 HZ (with a strong 99 HZ harmonic) was selected because it offers a strong supportive bass "thump" in any key- similar to a large marching band bass drum. Often the nature of the sound tends to resemble a note when another instrument (such as a guitar) suggests a note."

I haven't played that much since switching to the QSC setup but I miss it for some shows.

Bobby1note, I totally agree about the DEEP setting on the K series. I don't even fool with it!

Groovekings: I'm glad to hear about the little EV sub. I've been looking at that one too.

I'm not sure I could fit a KSub in my car so if I decided to add a sub the KSub might not be an option. That probably rules out the Yorkville options too!

Thanks again for all the help!
Matt
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Old 04-06-2016, 01:11 PM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by open-road-matt View Post
I'm not sure I could fit a KSub in my car so if I decided to add a sub the KSub might not be an option. That probably rules out the Yorkville options too!

Thanks again for all the help!
Matt
Actually, I fit two of the Yorkville LS-720P's on the back seat of my car, with room left over for more gear on top.
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Old 04-06-2016, 01:21 PM
Bobby1note Bobby1note is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krisls View Post
Quote "" Bobby 1 Note
"Now as far as the K-sub is concerned, the reviews among sub aficionados, has not been good. Many who've tried them, referred to them as "anemic". "

Well... I've read similar on the K Sub and personally after using one I don't agree at all. It might not be the biggest baddest punchiest sub about, but it's a good one. I think most of those negative reviews come from the Doof Doof DJ crowd who want rattle your chest bass.

Try this review http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/apr1...c-k10-ksub.htm

Kris
Ummmm, not quite Kris. I'd suggest that you read reviews on the pro-sound forums, where sound-providers actually make their living with this stuff,,,, not the DJ forums. The three main critiques I've seen regarding the K-sub are as follows;

1. It's a band-pass sub (typically refers to being considered "one-note wonders")
2. Pole-mount location leads to concerns about instability.
3. "Anemic performance" compared to similarly-priced alternatives.
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Old 04-06-2016, 04:42 PM
lschwart lschwart is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovekings View Post
I use two EV ZLX12p powered speakers with one 12 and a horn in each. Great for acoustic music and only 34 pounds. I also use the small ZXA1 powered sub when playing a large room or outdoors. They add the percussiveness plus take the heavy work off the tops and giving them the needed headroom to stay clean and clear. These subs weigh only 46 pounds each which is very light for a sub. They are not huge tub thumpers like a 15 or 18 would be but that is not required for acoustic music. The little bit if low end support makes a big difference. In small rooms or pubs I don't use them though as it is not necessary. Cheers
I think this is the key. A sub can certainly add something to an acoustic guitar vocal sound, but it's not generally necessary in a small room, where a typical decent powered 10" or 12" speaker can handle whatever low end oomph is needed. In larger rooms or outside, however, a sub will make getting that oomph out to an audience a lot easier with a lot more oomph to spare.

I also use the ZXA1-sub for oomph in larger rooms for a band that includes acoustic bass and hand percussion. Usually, however, for most of the mostly smaller gigs we get, the bass player just uses an amp and I don't have to mic the drums.

Louis
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Old 04-07-2016, 10:37 AM
pieterh pieterh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomm Williams View Post
I don't see anything in your current set-up that justifies a sub.
What he said.

You're not playing anything that needs those frequencies - subs regularly take care of 100 hz and below, maybe 120 hz. A regular tuned guitar has a low fundamental of around 82 hz which your full range speakers will cater for - and often cutting at around 100 cleans up a guitar's bottom end, especially when playing with other instruments.
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:12 PM
MikeTX MikeTX is offline
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Hey Matt - just a comment of agreement on B1N's "K-sub anemic"..

Our 4-5 piece band "went" QSC few years back - K12 mains, 1 K-sub, 4 K10 monitors. You know I have no "book-learning" about this stuff, but my ears have been listening for a long time :-} - anyway - I could never actually HEAR anything coming out of the sub, not sure I FELT anything either. We hoped to solidify the bass and kick. The guy running it knows a lot and has experience, and tried several different connection methods, but I just never HEARD much of anything - certainly not enough to justify.

You have a (nice) low voice, but really - you're one acoustic guitar and vocal, you don't use full-band tracks - I'd be very surprised if you could get anything discernable or difference-making thru a sub. Just my thought..

Best luck! Mike O'

-- band now is usually back to 1 Bose Classic per guy :-}
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Old 04-07-2016, 12:38 PM
zhunter zhunter is offline
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While the K-sub is relatively attractive from a size and weight standpoint, I agree they are on the anemic side. I play two venues that have them as house sound and they are barely there in the overall mix. Which for us is fine since we are a percussion heavy Latin band. If you want a subtle bass complement to your existing system from your sub, they actually are pretty good at that. If you really want thump, probably not so much.

I don't think we sound any different or any better or worse using house sound with the K-subs versus house sound with our no sub PA system. And we had a chance to try both ways. The k-sub is doing something but it won't be night and day in my experience.

hunter
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