Fishman Aura Imaging Pedal - Concert

[Livingston]

After spending several months (off and on) experimenting with my K&K Pure Western Mini, I'm thinking of putting a Fishman UST back in my Taylor 912C. By the way, I won't be removing the K&K. I will wire both the K&K and the UST to a stereo endpin jack (I'm pretty sure I have one in my guitar currently) in case I want to run one or the other or both.

Anyways, my question is, has anyone here had a chance to use the Aura Imaging Pedal setup for a "concert" sized guitar? I'm curious which 16 images Fishman has included on this pedal and most importantly, if any of the 16 will work well with my 912C.

Would appreciate any of your comments, feedback and advice before I go Aura hunting.

Thank you in advance.

Darryl

P.S. I have not given up on K&K. There have been times when I have been really pleased with the sound of the K&K, especially in solo fingerstyle pieces. I am also using a K&K on my electric archtop (K&K Pure Archtop) and running through a stereo endpin jack along with a Kent Armstrong PAF style pickup. Blended with the PAF, it sounds wonderful.

[guitaniac]

Darryl,

The Fishman folks have two concert sized Taylors in their Aura sound image library. There are 8 sound images of a cedar/koa non-cutaway 712 and 4 sound images of a spruce/maple (I presume) 612KM (cutaway Kathy Mattea signature model). The 712 is equipped with a Fishman Matrix Natural II UST system and the 612KM is equipped with a Matrix Natural I system.

Its very likely that sound images from one or both of these guitars is in the concert Aura pedal. Presuming they are, its also likely that the sound images will work decently well with your 912.

Unfortunately, I can't tell you for sure if sound images from one one or both of these concert-sized Taylors is in the concert Aura pedal. Fishman has chosen to keep the exact identity of the sound images in each pedal a secret, revealing only that each pedal contains sound images which are compatable with a general guitar category (jumbo, dread, orchestra, concert, nylon and 12 string). My suggestion is to get the concert pedal from a dealer who offers a good return policy, and to return the darn thing if it just doesn't please you after some very thorough testing and experimentation. I really think that a half-hour (or whatever) store demo may not (in some cases) be a fair test of this box. There are 16 sound images to try out, at various effect levels, in combination with whatever EQ you'll want to use with it. You'll also want to be flipping the phase inversion switch to see how that effects your tone.

In any event, I'd have no reservations at all about returning the pedal if it doesn't please - especially considering that Fishman won't tell you exactly what sound images are in it.


Here's a link to the Aura sound image library, if you are curious to see what other concert-sized guitars might have contributed sound images to the concert Aura pedal.
http://www.fishmanaura.com/code/img_inst.asp

Gary

[Livingston]

Gary,

Thanks for the detailed information. This is very helpful.

I was expecting to find a list of sound images on a spec sheet or website some where and never realized that Fishman would want to keep them a secret. Thanks for mentioning this...I can call off the search dogs I guess. They have such detailed information on their Aura page (thanks for the link btw); funny they would fall short by not listing the images of the new pedal.

I was hoping to find one on e-Bay, but I guess I better do some test driving first at a local shop.

Thanks again for taking the time to give so much info.

Darryl

[Joe Barbieri]

Hi Darryl,

Here is the Fishman answer on why there is no Image list published for the pedals: "It simply doesn't matter". We offer the Aura Imaging Blender for folks who want to get specific Images matched with their guitars. The Imaging pedals are meant to be a lower cost entry level Aura experience and as such, the image content is a moot point. As an example, let's say we offered the list of Images in the Concert pedal and your guitar was not listed. Would you then be more likely to pass on the purchase? probably. Instead, you can try one out by plugging in and letting your ears tell you which Images work. It makes no difference in this case what images you select as long as they work for your guitar. It also makes no difference if someone else reports a positive or negative experience. Your guitar will react like your guitar to the Images and that's it.
We also have hundreds more Images than the ones listed on our online library so do not pay attention to presumed assumptions about what's in the pedal. I do not believe this lack of disclosure on the Images is "falling short" but rather, it allows an unprejudiced demo of the product to be undertaken by many more musicians. As for your original question about anyone out there having tried the Imaging pedal with a Concert sized guitar, I can answer that I have personally played many, many Concert body guitars, with all types and brands of pickups, through this pedal during the R&D and Beta process and it really works. Really.....
PS: Most reputable MI retailers will allow a return on just about any product that doesn't meet your needs within a certain time frame. I'm thinking this is common knowledge among musicians so it should be no problem to try one out without risk.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by Joe Barbieri

We also have hundreds more Images than the ones listed on our online library so do not pay attention to presumed assumptions about what's in the pedal.

The logical question would be WHY aren't the additional sound images listed in the library? (I'm presuming here that the "hundreds more Images than the ones listed" are effective sound images which might be useful to Aura users.)

As for "presumed assumptions", Joe, you Fishman folks can expect a lot of presuming to be going on if you choose to keep the sound image details a secret.


In any event, you and I are in total agreement on the point that Darryl should purchase the Aura pedal from a dealer with a good return policy. He can give it a thorough tryout and decide for himself how well it works for his particular guitar. If the pedal helps Darryl's amplified guitar sound in a big way, Fishman will have another happy customer spreading the Aura gospel. If the pedal doesn't happen to "float his boat", on the other hand, he can return it without any reservations.

Gary

[Livingston]

Originally Posted by Joe Barbieri

Here is the Fishman answer on why there is no Image list published for the pedals: "It simply doesn't matter".

Hi Joe,

Thank you for your detailed information. My reply is not meant sarcastically or negatively at all. I honestly found your comment (especially your quote from Fishman) very interesting and some what puzzling.

So, if it "simply doesn't matter" why would I want to buy the more expensive version with more images or custom image capability? Sounds like it "simply doesn't matter".

I think the marketing story may make sense to Fishman, but as a normal consumer type person, I find it a little contradictory. My interpretation of what you are saying is, buy the blender so you can dial in the exact image that will make your specific guitar sound like it is being mic'd. Buy the imaging pedal which has only 16 of the images and don't worry about which images Fishman has included, because it doesn't matter.

It doesn’t matter as in, 16 images cover all the bases…and the other hundred images plus get your guitar custom imaged doesn’t really do anything? Or it doesn’t matter because 16 images is all we could fit in the pedal and you don’t get a choice so it doesn’t matter because 16 is all you get.

Just my 2 cents on how the Fishman quote sounded.

Also, I don’t agree that I would not buy your pedal based on my specific guitar not being listed. I’m assuming that Fishman selected the 16 images that covered the most bases. My guitar’s image is not listed on your current Aura website. That wouldn’t keep me from buying the blender or the imaging pedal. Of course, why am I even asking then if I don’t care if my guitar is not listed? I don’t know why…guess it seemed like the intelligent thing to ask. Maybe that is why Baskin Robbins is no longer 31 Flavors.

Thanks again for your detailed information…really, it is appreciated. I will check out the imaging pedal at a local shop. No kidding.

Darryl

Pssst…Joe – P.M. me with the secret list…I won’t tell anyone else.

[guitaniac]

Darryl,

I agree that there are some inconsistencies between the "this is a sound imager, not a modeler" approach (with its implied specifity) and the "take this magic box and try it out" approach. On the other hand, I give Fishman great credit for making the Aura technology available for folks who wanted something simpler, cheaper and more portable. In the final analysis, all you'll be risking is the experimentation time and the return postage.

My own take is that the Aura pedals might be especially useful for those who value simplicity and convenience, and who already have an onboard "barn door" preamp with decent EQ. As good as the various digital sound imaging and modeling effects may be, they haven't yet eliminated the need for decent EQ.

Gary

[Joe Barbieri]

Hey guys,

The fact is that the Imaging Blender and the Image pedals are at vastly different price points and therefore appeal to different customers. They are also different products that do different things even though they share a core technology. We offer an Aura experience in the pedals that may not appeal to someone looking for a more elevated experience. It's basically why there are Cadillacs and Kia's. They both get you where you're going, but you pay for more bells and whistles on the caddy. That fact that it "doesn't matter" what the Image is that you like in the pedal makes sense if you think about it. You can't change it anyway. If your guitar sounds good playing through #10, play it through #10. If not, try #6. It's that simple. There are different levels of success with imaging and the pedal provides an excellent "effect level" experience as opposed to the more pointed exact Image matching you can get with the Aura Blender. I enjoy explaining the Imaging technology but I do not feel the need to defend it. We are simply offering the Images in another format and price point for a different customer than we would have the for the Blender. As for the Images not yet released, we are always adding to the library and will continue to do so. The new Ellipse Aura also offers an interface to our database with the new Aura Gallery II with even more Images than can be downloaded directly into your guitar. There will be lots of new products that revolve around the Imaging technology, this is only the beginning. Let me know what you think of it when you try it Darryl.

JB

[Junglejem]

I agree with the "it doesn't matter" philosophy. I have the Jumbo Pedal. It has 16 presets. Some sound good, others not so good. I have no idea what was used to fabricate the preset I'm using (#7). But I would not select a not so good preset just because it matched my guitar.

I personally bought the Aura Pedal because I love my Gibson J-200, and its the only acoustic guitar I play. I want it to sound like the best Gibson J-200 possible, not like 30 other choices of guitars, bodies, woods, etc. Which is why the Aura Pedal is more useful in my situation than, for example, Mama Bear. The Mama Bear and Aura Blenders are wonderful devices, but overkill for those of us that merely seek to dial in a great tone for one guitar.

[guitaniac]

Darryl,

Joe's mention of the Aura Ellipse gave me an idea. Since you'll be putting a UST in your guitar anyway, you'll find it cheaper to buy an Aura Ellipse than to buy a seperate UST system plus the Aura pedal. You'll also be able to download any four of the Aura library sound images into the Aura Ellipse. Finding a good sound image match for your guitar shouldn't be too much of a problem. (If you don't find a good match from the first four downloaded sound images, I presume the you can continue to download sets of four sound images until you find a winner.)

In any event, an Aura Ellipse plus some kind of outboard EQ might be the most effective and economical way to go with the Aura - presuming you only have one guitar to Aura-tize. (An Aura floor preamp or pedal can be used with multiple guitars.)


Here's an Aura Ellipse report from Maury Rutch (of Maury's Music). Maury has been beta testing the system.
http://www.maurysmusic.com/fishman_ellipse_aura_review

If I understand Maury's website correctly, he already has the Aura Ellipse in stock.

Gary

[Junglejem]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Here's an Aura Ellipse report from Maury Rutch (of Maury's Music). Maury has been beta testing the system.
http://www.maurysmusic.com/fishman_ellipse_aura_review

If I understand Maury's website correctly, he already has the Aura Ellipse in stock.

Gary

I'm pretty sure Maury has the Ellipse as well as all the pedal models, PLUS a 30 day return policy. Seems to be a real head's up guy to deal with as well.

[Joe Barbieri]

Originally Posted by Junglejem

I agree with the "it doesn't matter" philosophy. I have the Jumbo Pedal. It has 16 presets. Some sound good, others not so good. I have no idea what was used to fabricate the preset I'm using (#7). But I would not select a not so good preset just because it matched my guitar.

I personally bought the Aura Pedal because I love my Gibson J-200, and its the only acoustic guitar I play. I want it to sound like the best Gibson J-200 possible, not like 30 other choices of guitars, bodies, woods, etc. Which is why the Aura Pedal is more useful in my situation than, for example, Mama Bear. The Mama Bear and Aura Blenders are wonderful devices, but overkill for those of us that merely seek to dial in a great tone for one guitar.

EXACTLY!
JB

[Livingston]

Junglejem,

Thanks for your comments. I was thinking about the Elipse too. I currently do not have an onboard preamp/volume control device. The Elipse seems attractive in that it provides onboard controls while being inconspicuous.

I'm still trying to sift through all the comments to understand this product line. I think the basic product concept is easy to understand. I think there was some confusion (at least for me) over how the specific products are differentiated.

I agree with you - I want my one and only acoustic to sound like my one and only acoustic and "not like 30 other choices of guitars, bodies, woods, etc." Actually, if I understand the Aura product concept, that (modeling) is not the intention anyway. The plethora of images exist to help users find a (close) match to their guitar that will enable the Aura to transform the UST signal into an accurate mic'd sound of your guitar and not to make your guitar sound like something else.

Thanks for suggesting the Elipse. If I like the Aura after trying it a shop, I may opt for the Elipse.

Gary,

Thanks again for your comments and information...very helpful. I will definintely demo at a shop before purchasing.

Joe,

After chewing on all the comments, I think I finally grasp the "it doesn't matter" concept.

First, it actually does matter so to say that it doesn't causes unnecessary confusion. It matters because you need to have the proper image (I'm assuming close is good enough; at least for the pedal) to produce a reasonable facsimile of your guitar's mic'd sound. Who cares what the image is called? In that regard, it doesn't matter - this should apply to the pedal, blender and the Elipse.

Second, 16 preselected images appears at a glance to be very limiting, especially when you compare 16 images to the hundreds of images listed on Fishman's site (and the hundreds more that you say are not listed). 16 vs. hundreds + "it doesn't matter" = huh???. However, upon digging a little deeper, it's not really 16 vs. hundreds. First, you have 6 pedals for 6 different body styles. 6 x 16 = 96 images vs. hundreds...okay, that's a little better, especially if you consider some of the nuances that separate one image from another (near vs. far vs. Neumann vs. Shure, etc). I can believe that 20% or 25% of the images available could work on a majority of guitars, especially if your talking about a majority of guitars in the range of the target user of the pedal. If Fishman was accurate in identifying the end users of the pedal and the range of guitars that those users probably own, then those 96 images could cover 90% or higher of those guitars.

Third, although the the lower cost pedal targets a different customer than the blender or the Elipse, the core technology is the same and relies on the appropriate image to work and sound properly. Therefore, selecting the correct image matters regardless of which Aura model you are using.

Lastly, my rationale for selecting the pedal may disqualify me as the target customer Fishman originally had in mind...which may partially be why I was confused by your comments. My interest in the pedal was its compact size and apparent simplicity. I was less interested in the price point although who doesn't like to save a little money? I was assuming that it shared the basic technology of the blender (and Elipse).

After digesting the comments, I think the pedal is still a possibility as long as the 1 of the 16 images matches my guitar.

Thanks again for all the information and sorry for the lengthy post.

[Joe Barbieri]

Hey Darryl, call me. 1-800-347-4626. Ask for Me. after 3:00 EST would be best.

Joe B.

[rmyAddison]

I have no pedal experience but I do have over a year with both a DC and OMC on board Aura, including stage time in various venues.

I run 100% Aura into a Genz Benz Shenandoah Pro (so I have mid parametric EQ) and I LOVE the sound, very natural with a lot of presence, imaging in my opinion is a big improvment over any pickup alone I have heard, I'm sure the technology will only improve with time...............