Right hand/wrist position - fingerstyle

[jthorpe]

Right, so. As the title infers, I've recently been spending a great deal of time correcting my right hand and arm position.

I've begun using a pinky anchor, as with this new hand position there is no tension and it does not inhibit my 3rd finger (the two reason I was against using one previously). I believe my accuracy has improved as a result.

The main focus has been on keeping my wrist straight, I've been using a mirror to make sure that my hand does not end up at a funny angle where by my wrist is bent at 45 degrees (whereby the fingers would be perfectly placed to strike the strings vertically. Think Rick Ruskin - note I am not saying he has bad technique, he has his guitar further over to the right than I am able to hold my dreadnought - so his wrist angle is not at all drastic).

I've also shifted the guitar over slightly to the right and elevated the neck a touch. As well as this, I have stopped 'hugging' the body quite as much as I did.

Does anyone else have any experience with this kind of attention to their technique? Or am I just being overly obsessive over nothing in particular?

[HarleySpirit]

R Hand Position for finger picking has been debated so many times before.
Your description may suit flatpicking better, or it may just suit you fine.
For a better R Hand fingerpicking position, take a look here:

http://users.eastlink.ca/~harleyspi/position.html

[JonPR]

I don't think you're being over-obsessive. It's crucial to have both hand positions correct - although that doesn't mean fixed in one position all the time. It's a matter of what's optimal for the task.

With right-hand fingerpicking, the orthodox classical position is to have the hand floating (so it can move easily wherever required) and thumb outside the index, so that it doesn't collide with fingers picking in the opposite direction - like this:

Depending on the angle of the guitar and position of your arm, this may mean the wrist needs to bend down a little. But that's partly why classical neck position is up quite high, around 45 degrees.

Folk and blues fingerpickers- who play with guitar on right leg, neck near horizontal - generally get round the wrist angle issue by wearing thumbpicks.

Personally, I find I can grow my thumb nail long (and strong) enough to pick the bass without needing a thumbpick. In that style, I rest my wrist on the top of the bridge, which lets me damp the bass when I need to, as well as get under the strings for a more aggressive Jansch-style twang when I need it (although he used a thumbpick).

Playing classical style, I don't rest my hand at all. I guess I've trained my hand to be stable enough without an anchor.

Speaking of classical style, btw, I saw a TV programme a couple of days ago where a person was playing a theorbo (giant lute) with a right hand position where the thumb was inside the fingers, as if the pinky could have been resting below the first string. The guy below is demonstrating that angle, which I guess may be correct for such vintage instruments:


Mind you, historical images often disagree:

Do you go with the guy with the little goatee, or the guy with the big wig?

[jthorpe]

Originally Posted by HarleySpirit

R Hand Position for finger picking has been debated so many times before.
Your description may suit flatpicking better, or it may just suit you fine.
For a better R Hand fingerpicking position, take a look here:

http://users.eastlink.ca/~harleyspi/position.html

I've already experimented with this hand position (after seeing Don Ross use something similar) and found that it hurt my forearm after a lengthy playing session and that it made my tone sound thin (obviously not the case for everyone)!

Originally Posted by JonPR

I don't think you're being over-obsessive. It's crucial to have both hand positions correct - although that doesn't mean fixed in one position all the time. It's a matter of what's optimal for the task.

With right-hand fingerpicking, the orthodox classical position is to have the hand floating (so it can move easily wherever required) and thumb outside the index, so that it doesn't collide with fingers picking in the opposite direction - like this:

Depending on the angle of the guitar and position of your arm, this may mean the wrist needs to bend down a little. But that's partly why classical neck position is up quite high, around 45 degrees.

Folk and blues fingerpickers- who play with guitar on right leg, neck near horizontal - generally get round the wrist angle issue by wearing thumbpicks.

Personally, I find I can grow my thumb nail long (and strong) enough to pick the bass without needing a thumbpick. In that style, I rest my wrist on the top of the bridge, which lets me damp the bass when I need to, as well as get under the strings for a more aggressive Jansch-style twang when I need it (although he used a thumbpick).

Playing classical style, I don't rest my hand at all. I guess I've trained my hand to be stable enough without an anchor.

Speaking of classical style, btw, I saw a TV programme a couple of days ago where a person was playing a theorbo (giant lute) with a right hand position where the thumb was inside the fingers, as if the pinky could have been resting below the first string. The guy below is demonstrating that angle, which I guess may be correct for such vintage instruments:


Mind you, historical images often disagree:

Do you go with the guy with the little goatee, or the guy with the big wig?

I guess 'anchor' implies no flexibility and that isn't what I actually mean - it provides me with a reference point for 'standard' picking patterns, but when required to do so, I am able to play without the pinky touching the guitar top!

Classical position doesn't suit my no nails approach (roll on people making Sor references) and kinda makes my arm ache.

Thumbpicks are cool but again my no nails approach means the bass is too loud (I play on a dreadnought). I get a nice balanced tone if I use the bare thumb and fingers. I might add that I am only a hobby player at home and a quieter tone is beneficial :redface:

Great reference to Jansch twang, love that guys playing, I like having no fingernails so that I can pop the strings 'like he did' (despite him having fingernails I know).

Those lute pictures are awesome! Learn something new every day on here!!

[Fruitloop]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Speaking of classical style, btw, I saw a TV programme a couple of days ago where a person was playing a theorbo (giant lute) with a right hand position where the thumb was inside the fingers, as if the pinky could have been resting below the first string. The guy below is demonstrating that angle, which I guess may be correct for such vintage instruments:


Mind you, historical images often disagree:

Do you go with the guy with the little goatee, or the guy with the big wig?

That is interesting, I always read about the classic position for lute being thumb inside the palm, or that that is considered the right position. Never really looked closer at old paintings of people playing lute. It could be possible though he was simply posing for the painting like that, maybe the artist thought it looked better?

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Fruitloop

That is interesting, I always read about the classic position for lute being thumb inside the palm, or that that is considered the right position. Never really looked closer at old paintings of people playing lute. It could be possible though he was simply posing for the painting like that, maybe the artist thought it looked better?

Yes, a posed (non-playing) position is quite likely. Obviously for a painting (even the preliminary sketch) the sitter has to adopt a position he can hold for a while.
And often the point of the painting is not to show a lute player in action anyway - the instrument could just be a prop.

All except a couple of the old drawings and paintings of lute players I've found online show that relaxed, modern-looking position, fingers hanging down, thumb often resting on bass string. The other two (eg the one below) could just be different holding poses, not playing ones.


This blog (where the first pic came from) has some interesting info on the evolution of the technique:
http://musiciansinordinary.blogspot....1_archive.html

Check this out...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeUcGD4rRRc
- monster! I want one!! hello, ladies...

[rick-slo]

Personally I would keep the pinky off the guitar top, or at least be able to play well with or without it on the top. You can improve your accuracy minimizing you right hand movements. Sometimes the thumb or other finger can briefly steady the hand by resting on a string while playing notes with other fingers. Consistent fingernails (or lack thereof) and some scale practice will improve accuracy. Besides positioning just for accuracy position for tone also.

[LeftArm]

Originally Posted by jthorpe

Does anyone else have any experience with this kind of attention to their technique? Or am I just being overly obsessive over nothing in particular?

I started playing classical and if you want some obsessive behaviour over hand position I can direct you to a good web site.
When I started playing blues and wanted to palm mute (and use a thumb pick) I had to readjust my right hand position to avoid twisting my wrist.
JonPR sums it up very well.
It's not obsessive. Good hand position can improve tone and relax the hand to help prevent repetitive strain injuries.

[Paikon]

Lute and classical guitar are different instruments. Probably lute players play with this hand position because they get a better sound that way or it is more relaxed because of the shape of the lute.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by jthorpe

…I've also shifted the guitar over slightly to the right and elevated the neck a touch. As well as this, I have stopped 'hugging' the body quite as much as I did.
…Does anyone else have any experience with this kind of attention to their technique? Or am I just being overly obsessive over nothing in particular?

Hi jt...

Those who play fingerstyle in a classical orientation tend to angle the wrist to the right and play with fingers perpendicular to the strings. If players are careful to relax the wrist when doing so (whether they play classical or fingerstyle), they may never develop pain. Unfortunately many stress their wrists playing at that angle.

Others who play more conventional fingerstyle (and who declares what is official?) keep the right hand at about a 45° angle to the strings. This provides better spacing for grabbing full chords, and for the finger tips when the saddle spacing is not wider than normal

The fingerboard on a typical OM is 1¾" whereas a classical neck is 2" - and the actual string spacing on the 1 ¾" fingerboard is 1½" & on a classical about 1⅞". So it's understandable with different music, different styles, and different instruments that the fingering techniques would vary.

If you elevate the neck so the headstock is chin/nose high, it rotates the body of the guitar counterclockwise a bit, aligns both wrists so they fall pretty much straight into place with very little angle (ergonomically very friendly to wrists/forearms) and draws the fingerboard several inches closer to the body relieving stress on the fretting shoulder.

Many players who use various 'lifts' are adjusting all three of the angles under discussion (angle of both wrist while drawing the headstock a few inches closer to the fretting hand).

As a teacher and a post-65 year old player, I'm aware of the stresses, ailments, and pains in students and players as we age. Learning to adjust ergonomics at a younger age may help prevent stress as we age.

If you are just using the pinky as a place marker (not putting weight on it) you are not going to disturb your fluidity, nor you ability. You would be in good company with may pinky droppers (some of the best fingerstyle players in the world in fact).

[LeftArm]

All you ever wanted to know about Lute under-thumb technique.
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/pub...eTechnique.pdf

[HarleySpirit]

Why Right Hand Orientation?

The reason to orient your hand on the guitar surface, is to find a reference point, to help navigate the strings. It’s easier to find individual strings, if at least some part of your right hand is in temporary contact with the guitar.
This advise is suitable for most acoustic, electric, steel players, banjo, dobro, mandolin, lap guitar players, finger pickers, and flat pickers, as well.

[creamburmese]

You can also stabilize the right hand like classical players do, with a thumb or sometimes fingers always resting on a string while other fingers play. Speaking from personal experience, it takes a fair amount of practice to get this to happen automatically... It does allow you to maintain the same angle of attack regardless of which string is being played though.

[RRuskin]

Originally Posted by jthorpe

Right, so. As the title infers, I've recently been spending a great deal of time correcting my right hand and arm position.

I've begun using a pinky anchor, as with this new hand position there is no tension and it does not inhibit my 3rd finger (the two reason I was against using one previously). I believe my accuracy has improved as a result.

The main focus has been on keeping my wrist straight, I've been using a mirror to make sure that my hand does not end up at a funny angle where by my wrist is bent at 45 degrees (whereby the fingers would be perfectly placed to strike the strings vertically. Think Rick Ruskin - note I am not saying he has bad technique, he has his guitar further over to the right than I am able to hold my dreadnought - so his wrist angle is not at all drastic).

I've also shifted the guitar over slightly to the right and elevated the neck a touch. As well as this, I have stopped 'hugging' the body quite as much as I did.

Does anyone else have any experience with this kind of attention to their technique? Or am I just being overly obsessive over nothing in particular?

I hold the guitar that way because due to fusions at the elbows of the ulna and radius of each arm, it's the only way I can play at all. These anomalies are also the reason use my thumb rather than barre and that I learned to hold down any 2 notes on the same fret of adjacent strings with any given finger.

[jthorpe]

Originally Posted by RRuskin

I hold the guitar that way because due to fusions at the elbows of the ulna and radius of each arm, it's the only way I can play at all. These anomalies are also the reason use my thumb rather than barre and that I learned to fold down any 2 notes on the same fret of adjacent strings with any given finger.

Wow! Not only did you persevere and learn to play the guitar with those 'issues' you absolutely mastered! More power to you man! Keep it up, your playing is killer!

James