Mic it up?

cheer tunes · #1 07-07-2017, 12:57 PM

I have a D18 that I would love to use at my next show but it does not have a pick up. I am thinking of using a Shure Beta57a mic pointed around the 14th fret about 2 inches off the fingerboard. I've been doing some testing and it seems like it could work.

What are your experiences/suggestions?

The club sound person said that is a great mic for that type of application and said it should work well - small club holds about 50 max.

cotten · #2 07-07-2017, 01:06 PM

Yes, that will work nicely, though you may have to experiment a bit with its exact placement and the direction it and your monitor(s) are pointing. In that setting, unless monitors are cranked up too loud, I wouldn't expect feedback to be much of a problem. Good luck, and be sure to report back how it goes!

cotten

fitness1 · #3 07-07-2017, 01:09 PM

In general, I think with a single mic you'll get the best results about 10-12" or so away from the guitar, between the soundhole and the neck body joint, pointed on an angle at the neck body joint. Start there and move it around a little (angled up/down) With a dread there will be a boom factor, so you'll have to find the spot that works best.

2" away from the fingerboard is going to be hard to maintain regarding position......you move a little one way or the other and it will change everything.

cheer tunes · #4 07-07-2017, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fitness1

In general, I think with a single mic you'll get the best results about 10-12" or so away from the guitar, between the soundhole and the neck body joint, pointed on an angle at the neck body joint. Start there and move it around a little (angled up/down) With a dread there will be a boom factor, so you'll have to find the spot that works best.

2" away from the fingerboard is going to be hard to maintain regarding position......you move a little one way or the other and it will change everything.

10-12 inches? seems far, wouldn't they have to turn up the gain really high?

rmsstrider · #5 07-07-2017, 01:54 PM

I have that mic and just experimented with it last night at home with a Bose L1 compact. I found 2-3" worked best around the 14th fret. I was seated and didn't move much. I was plugged in straight to the Bose without my mixer. Using A mixer would be better I think. I didn't get to try for more than a few minutes. I have never had any feedback problems with that mic. It is very focused.

fitness1 · #6 07-07-2017, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheer tunes

10-12 inches? seems far, wouldn't they have to turn up the gain really high?

Lots of variables there, but possibly. I can guarantee you won't have good luck keeping a mic 2" away from your guitar!!

I guess probably more like 8" (just measured) has always been the sweet spot for recording and performing for me and my guitars.

Too close to the body on a dread and your going to have a heck of a time getting the low end out of it.

You could try the K&K Meridian, I suppose....

Wade Hampton · #7 07-07-2017, 03:51 PM

When I was playing in Irish bars for my living I used a rosewood Mossman dreadnought for my stage guitar. I didn't like the sound of any of the acoustic guitar pickups commonly available back then, so I just miked it. The Electro-Voice equivalent of the Shure 57 is what I used as an instrument mic.

As you might imagine, the Irish bars were loud, boisterous environments, but I managed to be heard using only a microphone.

As a rule I pointed the mic at the base of the fingerboard, just above the soundhole, right about where fitness recommended. I kept it about 8 to 12 inches away most of the time, and got so that stepping in and out of the mic I could add some nuance and dynamics in addition to what I was already doing with my hands.

fitness made an excellent point when he said that maintaining a 2 inch distance from the microphone is going to be difficult. Give yourself some more room than that. The sound guy is trying to make HIS job as easy as possible, but he can deal with you being a foot away. Your concentration needs to be on your songs and your performance, not on maintaining the sound guy's ideal mic positioning.

Hope that makes sense.

Wade Hampton Miller

PS: I doubt that your audience there will be as rowdy as the audiences I used to play to in the Irish pubs. 8" to 12" away should work just fine: you'll be able to hear yourself, and they'll hear you.

Wolfram · #8 07-07-2017, 04:03 PM

Yes, 2" is far too close. Sound amplitude follows the inverse square law - doubling the distance makes it four times quieter (and halving the distance makes it four times louder). While this doesn't quite hold for miking a guitar, because sound reaches the mic from a wider area, you'll still get a massive variation in loudness at the mic if you move the guitar even a half inch... this will make it impossible to get a consistent sound.

You're also likely to get a very unnatural tonality because you won't be picking up very much of the sound from the soundhole at all, it'll be all from the string.

I would experiment with at least 8" and probably more like the 10"-12" as fitness1 suggested, and I also agree with the suggested angled setup pointing between the soundhole and neck as a starting point to capture a good balance of the sound coming off the guitar.

When testing a mic setup, I find it very useful to record it then listen back, to make sure you're not getting any of the natural acoustic sound of the guitar, even when wearing good closed-back headphones.

Cheers,
David

StringFive · #9 07-08-2017, 12:15 PM

I've been gigging for years with acoustic guitars. While using a mic is possible, unless you're in a quiet concert setting, you'll be asking for trouble...as in feedback...not being heard...thin sound. Best to use a pickup. A K&K in your D18 will sound great, be dependable, and will relieve the stress. Just sayin' Good luck either way...

ManyMartinMan · #10 07-08-2017, 12:34 PM

Experimenting with mic placement at home or in a small room won't be the same as in a club situation. The sound guy who gave you the advice will place the mic for you at the open mic and set the board so you will be heard.

kozsak · #11 07-08-2017, 12:50 PM

A plain old SM57 plugged into a good quality preamp, and then maybe a good quality compressor can sound great.

It does require attention to where you stand, etc...

Gilian Welch and David Rawlings play live this way frequently:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-qt7yOgbRs

min7b5 · #12 07-08-2017, 04:24 PM

Unless I'm confused there seems to be two threads on this topic from the same person, so I'm just copied what I put in the other in hopes it's somewhat helpful:

Small club of fifty, presumably quiet or relatively quiet audeince, no reason to use a pickup. Should be easy.

Couple quick thoughts: While I agree pointing at the fourteen fret is probably the best tone, and what I would choose for a single mic recording location, I do not think it is best for live sound. Sound people will often disagree until I demonstrate.

For live sound I would aim the mic up, toward the space between the sound hole and the bridge, or put another way; up toward your right hand. There is much more volume at this location. The problem with mic'ing an acoustic guitar is the very low volume it puts out. You just don't hear sax players complain about using a mic at a gigs...

Anyway, you won't get the deal-breaking boom you would at the sound hole directly, but there is more low-mid activity there so best to roll off the bass on the mic it's self if possible (though you can't do that on a 57) or at the soundboard. Tell the sound person you need a "small to medium cut around 150 or so."

Play with angles, and mic distances (57 probably is going to need to be pretty close because it is a dynamic microphone). It all makes a big difference. It time you'll learn to use this as a tool of expression -leaning in for a solo, backing off for louder strumming... It's way better than any pickup, which are dynamicly more like a head-set mic -you can't get away from it.

Also, use no monitors if possible. Or have the crew start with no monitor in the mix and then bring it up very slowly, and use the very least possible. Consider relocating yourself to hear more of the mains as a way or hearing yourself better.

guitaniac · #13 07-08-2017, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cheer tunes

I have a D18 that I would love to use at my next show but it does not have a pick up. I am thinking of using a Shure Beta57a mic pointed around the 14th fret about 2 inches off the fingerboard. I've been doing some testing and it seems like it could work.

What are your experiences/suggestions?

The club sound person said that is a great mic for that type of application and said it should work well - small club holds about 50 max.

We all used mics in the '60s - and we all needed to use a pretty aggressive string attack (with flatpick or fingerpicks) in noisy settings.

I bought my first pickup (a Dean Markley mag) in '73 or '74. I bought it from a very good finger-stylist (four time runner-up at Winfield) who used pickups so that the more subtle aspects of his playing could be heard in noisy environments. To my way of thinking, the great value of pickups is that they allow for the use of more delicate playing styles in difficult settings.

My guesstimate is that a mic will do fine in your situation, if you have a strong string attack and the room isn't crazy noisy. On the other hand, if you're a light-handed player who plays with bare fingerpads, you may wish that you'd opted for a temporary soundhole mag. Please let us know how it goes.

SpruceTop · #14 07-08-2017, 07:09 PM

Back in the "Old Days," does anyone remember using a mic, and as the night went on and the crowd got rowdier, the closer you moved your guitar to the mic while belting out the lyrics to many a song? If you made any recordings of yourself, and you heard strange, clinky, tinky harmonics, that was your guitar strings hitting the metal screen on the SM57 or the windscreen on the SM58 (or the cheaper models of these venerable workhorses) you used to mic your guitar. In 9 out of 10 live-playing situations, I'll take a good pickup system over a mic, and in the best of live-playing situations, I'd use a combination of pickup and external mic

fitness1 · #15 07-09-2017, 09:11 AM

I spent about 90 minutes this morning experimenting with mic placement on all my guitars - pulled my PA gear out into my fitness studio (large room with high ceilings and carpeted)

Eric's response about miking at the bridge only got me wondering - I'd used that placement when double miking - even live, but not as the only source.

I played around with 5-6 locations and angles with each instrument and found that pretty much across the board the best sound I was hearing was with the SDC pointed directly at the top, about 4-5" from the treble side waist right at the narrowest of the curve.

Eric's position at the bridge was second, but seemed to take some of the string/air away and had more natural compression than I liked.

The waist position had more air and dynamics on all of my instruments, and worked particularly well on the dreadnought.

I've always thought I had a pretty good ear - and will say that this surprised me a little.