Inside a Rainsong

[TWISTED]

Have my first carbon fiber guitar (Rainsong BI-OM1000N2) coming direct from Ted @ LA Guitar Sales. Can't say enough about his dedication and willingness to engage with his customers to help select the next toy...

In my recent info searches over the last week, I came across the following Youtube video where a guy takes a scope into the guitar to see the inner structure of a BI-WS1000 and has to deal with annoying cat... Enjoy.

[Song]

Congratulations on your new Black Ice OM!

[TWISTED]

Originally Posted by We Walk in Song

Congratulations on your new Black Ice OM!

Thanks, can't wait to get it!

[Carbonius]

I watched this, skipping ahead to the inner view. As he's showing the inside he keeps commenting on all the things that aren't there. Braces, kerfing, neck block and so on. It got me thinking...

WHAY ARE THESE SO STINKING EXPENSIVE?!?!?!

Rainsong could obviously slap together a guitar WAY faster then any wooden builder; even if it was a fully automated wood guitar factory. Drying the wood, making & gluing on braces, installing kerfing, routering, binding... and all the other ADDITIONAL steps the a wood guitar must go through vs. carbon. Both need finishing and buffing, both need frets installed and shaped. Both have some glueing processes, but the Rainsong has FAR less.

Is carbon really that expensive?? Or is it the labor question?? I'm surprised nobody has made a notable off-shore line of carbon guitars yet. Seems far more simple then building wood guitars. I watched all the CA guitar videos that were out about 7 years ago, showing the process. Less complicated then the wood builder videos I've watched.

[mot]

Originally Posted by Carbonius

WHAY ARE THESE SO STINKING EXPENSIVE?!?!?!

Short answer - New Technology.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by Carbonius

I watched this, skipping ahead to the inner view. As he's showing the inside he keeps commenting on all the things that aren't there. Braces, kerfing, neck block and so on. It got me thinking...

WHAY ARE THESE SO STINKING EXPENSIVE?!?!?!

A post of mine from a few weeks ago:
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A RainSong top is two layers of pre impregnated CF fabric and a lightweight spacer. That spacer is deleted around the edge of the sound board (for flexibility and tone -- like a Taylor relief route) and at the soundhole (to allow the two layers to mate directly). Under the bridge is a bridge plate like hard rectangular spacer in place of the lightweight spacer. The sides of a RainSong are a single layer of prepreg CF. The back is constructed essentially similar to the top. The neck and end pin areas of the sides have a second layer of CF and a hard spacer. All of this makes for minimal weight. The Hybrid models use fiberglass for the layer of the back you see from the soundhole. Presumably the Standard models use CF for the hard buildups (neck, end pin, bridge plate) and the Hybrid models use fiberglass. The neck appears to be epoxy with likely some sort of filler (light particles to reduce weight) injected into a mold surrounded by unimpregnated CF fabric. If you put a flashlight up to the side of your RainSong and look at that spot from the soundhole, the single layer becomes clear and there will be little points of light where there is a gap in the weave.

A CA guitar appears to be made with an unimpregnated CF fabric buildup (CF-spacer-CF) with the epoxy added during construction. The top appears to be a thinner CF buildup (CF-spacer-CF) with braces compared to RainSong's unbraced thicker top. The neck is an extension of the back and side mold and is likely filled with epoxy cut with a filler. This is a very different approach and uses a lot more epoxy to get the job done. It is heavier.

Neither construction technique strikes me as better from a purely physical abuse standpoint. The tone difference seems pretty obvious (at least to this veteran guitarist). Neither guitar will resist a puncture from a sharp piece of metal (so they are not indestructible).
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One thing I forgot to mention is RainSong does use a kerfing to bond the top to to the sides (unlike CA). It is made of a single layer of CF and not obvious if you don't look carefully. For the life of me, I can't visualize how they get that to work. For that matter, how they build their N2 necks is another mystery that they seem quite happy to leave undocumented (there are no longer pictures of the RainSong factory showing the neck manufacture).

The complexity in a RainSong is in the build-up of its constituent components. There is a lot going on, you just can't see it. And it is mostly done by hand with very expensive materials.

Jon

[Carbonius]

Originally Posted by mot

Short answer - New Technology.

I don't think "new" can justify the cost though. Maybe it's the R&D category... but still. Both wood and carbon factories uses CNC machines, forms or molds and the like. However the wood factories need more machines and substantially more tools. I have a hard time believing the overhead capital cost for a carbon builder is higher than for a wood builder. Rolls of carbon-fibre and other materials store a lot easier than tops, backs and side. No humidity control required.

It's been nice to see Rainsong offer some of there newer guitars at lower prices. However I don't want 24.9" with a 12 fret neck. I'd love to see a stripped down version of the Co-WS1000N2. No fret markers & a simple finish. Now that they offer factory installed K&K, I'm more interested. Just can't stand barn doors! I know that a Co-WS1100N2 is an option, but it's the price that hurts. Paying extra for shark inlays that I can't stand is not for me. But the Co-WS1000N2 seems to have the tone profile I'm looking for.

I guess it's just the price of doing business.

[mot]

Confusing 'cost' with 'price' is a lot like confusing 'education' with 'training', but I digress.

New technology implies more than just the cost of creating a widget. It also implies that there may be a disparity in demand and supply giving a boost to the producers until more widgets enter the Market. Since this is a relatively new technology, the companies offering the product are still (knowingly and possibly unknowingly) sizing up their market. You will likely see the prices increase at a decreasing rate (hopefully along with continually improved consistency and variety) until market saturation.

This has nothing to do with how complex a widget is to make (cost). The Market doesn't really care about inputs used. The Market is more concerned with other attributes such as availability and utility. Price reflects some combination of these concerns (sometimes to the detriment or boon of a participant) to obtain a perceived value.

I am guessing that carbon fiber and other alternate material guitar prices will continue to increase at a greater rate than the overall guitar market as more players lose their reticence to try something novel. This is because the now still boutique producers won't be able to keep up with increasing demand. You will know that carbon fiber varieties are a mature variation of available guitars when the major producers (and off brand knock offs of major brands) offer their own versions to the always hungry Market.

You can get some sense of the true value of a widget by looking at the used market. Using cars as an example there is usually on average about a 25% drop in price once a car drive off the show room floor. On the other hand, cars can often depreciate up to 90% or more for a decade or two before they turn around, but guitars don't follow that same track and tend to hold their value better.

[Song]

Originally Posted by Carbonius

I'm surprised nobody has made a notable off-shore line of carbon guitars yet.

Emerald is in Ireland http://emeraldguitars.com

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by Carbonius

Rolls of carbon-fibre and other materials store a lot easier than tops, backs and side. No humidity control required.

Actually, it might be easier to store wood. RainSong uses pre-preg CF that requires refrigeration to keep the epoxy in the completely uncured state. They also need all their assembly fixtures to be able to handle the relatively high curing temperature, unlike a wooden guitar. And for that matter, RainSong needs curing ovens large enough to hold assembled guitar bodies (given the back and sides are a single fixture assembly).

The expectation that a CF guitar is cheaper to make is completely unfounded. All the years of experience in wood guitar assembly has made that quite the automated process. I toured the Martin factory in 1974 and it was a peaceful place with relatively few band saws and thickness planers and many draw knives, chisels, and files generating mostly pretty little curls of wood. Today it is a ear splitting assembly of CNC machines, cast aluminum fixtures, and dust everywhere.

[Acousticado]

Regarding cost, likely, the short answer is "economies of scale". CF builders just don't have it.

[steelvibe]

Honestly? All guitars are expensive. A high end Taylor or Martin can cost $3K and just goes up from there.

When you factor in the worry free, impervious nature of CF, and the endless possibilities/ potential for what form can be made with it (think Emerald), CF guitars are possibly the best bang for the buck out there. Remember, casting your dollars the direction of CF is more than just taking home an instrument. It is an investment to the future research, development and improvement of CF/composite builds.

I mean, you can get a US built RainSong for less than $1400, what's not to love?

BTW TWISTED, welcome to the world of CF. I bet you will love your guitar.

[TWISTED]

Wow, a lot of good information and discussion here. Just shows me there is soooooo much more to learn.

steelvibe, thank you for the welcome. I am so excited, I'm a neophyte in the world of guitar, but based on the majority of Rainsong owners, they have nothing but praises for their instruments.

[Carbonius]

Jon Fields. I was writing my post as you were writing yours, so I didn't get a chance to read it until now. I didn't know about the different layers within the fabric, that certainly adds to it a lot. Like the expense of getting a double top with a honeycomb layer in between. Thank you very much for the detailed response.

Mot, appreciate what you said as well. Very good discussion here that helps to fill in the gaps. Truly a look "inside" of a rainsong doesn't really tell you what's fully going on inside.

Steelvibe, I had also thought of Taylor and Martin as comparisons. In a way that's more Apples to Apples because we're dealing with American manufacturers. But then you've got the G Series Takamine that are pretty good guitars at a pretty good price (although made in China). Same with some of the offerings from Simon and Patrick, especially the Entourage series. They have an amazing short scale mini-jumbo that sells for peanuts in comparison to the big boys. And that one is still made in North America, completely shocking actually.

But I am a firm believer in "you get what you pay for". I have no problem with a product being a high price when that price is Justified. I have no problem with people spending $30,000 on a guitar if they want to, more power to them! I just thought that a made-in-China alternative might be pretty attractive with this technology.

We Walk In Song, very true. I laughed actually. Emerald is certainly "off-shore". As I'm sure you know, traditionally that isn't what a person means when they say off-shore. However, Emerald is a strong consideration for me. I find Rainsong's are either too deep or too shallow. 5 inches is a bit much for me but the 4.1 inch OM just doesn't have the bass I'm looking for. The Emerald X20 seems to be right in the sweet spot for me.

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by TWISTED

Wow, a lot of good information and discussion here. Just shows me there is soooooo much more to learn.

steelvibe, thank you for the welcome. I am so excited, I'm a neophyte in the world of guitar, but based on the majority of Rainsong owners, they have nothing but praises for their instruments.

You are welcome. Remember to try a bunch of strings. We all have our preferences on here but carbon fiber is even more responsive to string materials than wood. Please post your thoughts after you have had some time with your Black Ice OM!