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  #31  
Old 06-22-2017, 01:38 PM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
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Originally Posted by perttime View Post
We have technical explanations, so far ... but what does a minor key DO?

To me, songs played in minor key and/or using minor chords often get a melancholy mood.
People say that, but I never hear that happy/sad thing, not as way to identify them, certainly. Unless a song actually is happy or sad, I don't hear that in the key. Just weird, I guess. But I would think that emotional assignment would be very culturally determined, too, like the way different cultures associate different meanings and emotions with different colors.
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  #32  
Old 06-22-2017, 01:58 PM
perttime perttime is offline
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People say that, but I never hear that happy/sad thing, not as way to identify them, certainly. ...
I wouldn't say happy vs. sad, exactly. That is too extreme. Even cheerful vs. resigned is a bit too much for the feeling I tend to get.

Do you get some feeling about songs in Major vs. minor? Or even just hearing the scale played?

There must be some reason why they are differentiated - in addition to technical explanations.
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  #33  
Old 06-22-2017, 02:05 PM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
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I wouldn't say happy vs. sad, exactly. That is too extreme. Even cheerful vs. resigned is a bit too much for the feeling I tend to get.

Do you get some feeling about songs in Major vs. minor? Or even just hearing the scale played?

There must be some reason why they are differentiated - in addition to technical explanations.
Oh, yes, I can hear the key, and the intervals of the scale. I just don't get that emotion from them unless the song is obviously a sad one, slow, sad lyrics, etc.
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  #34  
Old 06-22-2017, 02:32 PM
Kerbie Kerbie is offline
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I can hear the mood in the key easily, but I have never heard minor keys as sad. Maybe dark, eerie, mysterious, intriguing, etc., but not sad. I think that's especially true in classical music. Some of the most beautiful classical pieces I know are in minor keys and I just don't view them as sad. But I recognize that is very common generalization... I just don't share it.
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  #35  
Old 06-24-2017, 05:51 AM
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Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Right. But it's all down to history, not logic!

If I can try and make a very long story stupidly short....

Back in the middle ages, the modal system ruled European music. This means FOUR modes, based on the notes we now call ABCDEFG. No sharps or flats. The four "authentic" modes were Dorian (DEFGABCD), Phrygian (EFGABCDE), Lydian (FGABCDEF) and Mixolydian (GABCDEFG). No Ionian, no Aeolian. No "keys" of any kind.

Each mode could be extended down below their roots by a 4th, to form the so-called "plagal" modes. E.g., "Hypodorian" (meaning "lower dorian") was ABCDEFGA.
The important point here is that the root note or "final" of Hypodorian was still D, not A. A wasn't the root of anything. If you want a modern comparison, think of "Happy Birthday". The tune covers an octave, from the 5th to the 5th of the scale. The keynote is the 4th up from the lowest note. This means it uses the "plagal range" of the major scale. If it starts on a G note (lowest note in the tune), it means the key is C major - not G major or G mixolydian.
IOW, lowest notes are just lowest notes - not necessarily keynotes.

I.e., the reason A is called "A" is just because it was the lowest note of all the notes in use at the time. (Probably because it was comfortable low note for most men to sing - which is still the case with our modern A of 110 Hz.)
The entire range in use covered two octaves, from the bottom A of Hypodorian to the top G of Mixolydian. (Equivalent to guitar A string up to G on fret 3 of top E.) Remember this is all about men singing, and very few men can comfortably get much higher or lower than that without straining.
A little later a bottom G was added, labelled as the Greek letter gamma. And an additional higher octave was added on top, for boys or male counter-tenors.

This modal system lasted for around 1000 years, from the 6th century to the 16th. But of course it underwent substantial (if slow) evolution over that period. To begin with, there was no harmony. Singers sang in unison or in octaves. Then perfect 4ths and 5ths were allowed (the "perfect consonances"), in a system known as "organum".
The problem they encountered then was that the modes contained a tritone: F-B, or B-F; an augmented 4th or diminished 5th. This sounded dissonant, so it was avoided. (It was never called "diabolus in musica" at that time, nor ever considered satanic ) Whenever harmonies threatened to approach the tritone, one of the notes would be raised or lowered. Normally it was the B that would be flattened.
This was enough to take care of things for centuries. No other "accidentals" were needed. The use of Bb meant that modes could be transposed. Eg., you could now have a G dorian if you wanted it, or an A phrygian. Wow, the freedom! (This principle of altering the modes to make them run more smoothly was known as "musica ficta".)

It wasn't until the middle of the 16th century that Ionian and Aeolian were finally added to the official theory texts - meaning they had probably been creeping in for decades in practice. (AFAIK, Ionian had been popular with the earlier troubadours, meaning the church would have considered it crude or rude - think of how rock'n'roll was regarded by religious authorities in the mid-50s, or how rap is viewed now.)

Harmonic practices had been developing for some time, and by the 16th century the notion of "keys" was starting to take hold. The way accidentals were acting - particular Bb and F# - seemed to be making Dorian gravitate to Aeolian (by lowering its 6th) and Lydian to Ionian (lowering its 4th), while adding F# to mixolydian made it resemble Ionian. So it was as if Ionian and Aeolian were the inevitable result of all that avoidance of the tritone: the modes that the new harmonic practices were pointing towards.

Moreover, the new system of triadic harmony - since 3rds had become acceptable consonances - meant the tritone could be handled. Yes, it was still dissonant - but move each note by one step, and it became a consonant 3rd (root position or inverted to a minor 6th). B-F could be used, because the tension could be resolved by following it with C-E.

This is what the new system of "keys" or "tonality" was all about: the deliberate use of harmonic tensions to set up movement through a sequence. It was rather like discovering that fire wasn't just a destructive thing to be avoided, but it could be harnessed for heating and cooking. The key system (major and minor) harnessed dissonance for creative purposes.

Ionian was naturally suited to this harmonic system because of how the tritone resolved. The natural root of C and E (even when E is on the bottom) is C, Ionian's root. C-E are also chord tones of Am, which helped aeolian become the essential "dark" counterpart to the relative major. (Previously the modes had divided into major - lydian, mixolydian - and minor - phrygian, dorian. Ionian and Aeolian were like the average mid-points of each of those pairs.)
All that the minor key needed was the leading tone to the root, hence the convention of "harmonic minor", raising the 7th step whenever the root was approached from below. This was only the same sort of thing that "musica ficta" had been doing for centuries, adjusting scales to make harmonies work better.

The interesting thing about this "major-minor key system" is that - while the extraordinary edifice of classical music was built on it - it had essentially burnt itself out after around 300 years (unlike that 1,000 year modal system, itself deriving from the even older Greek system). The Post-Romantic composers of around 100 years ago considered it worn out. All its tricks had been exploited, there was nothing new to be found in it. Hence the 20thC moves into impressionism, serialism, etc., the search for fresh new musical languages. Jazz followed suit around 50 years later when the avant garde tried to clear the decks of standard jazz harmony and try "modal jazz" (a mix of classical impressionism and African and Indian folk music).
Meanwhile, popular music of all kinds never got bored with the key system. The whole point of "popular" music is to be popular, and most audiences like what they know, what's familiar. The avant garde never gets very far in the pop sphere. You can't singalong with Schoenberg, any more than you can with Ornette Coleman.
So the key system is alive and well in pop and rock music - even if it has been roughed up somewhat by modal sensibilities: had its corners knocked off, had its tie loosened, its jacket unbuttoned, its neat hair messed up a litte. That strict classical system has been dragged out of its ivory tower into the market place and on to the dirty streets. It's had to learn some new slang...
You deserve a quote for this effort above

I met this bloke on here back around 2005 and love his technique of using scales ...wonder if he still hangs out here .He was good enough to send me his cd and even wrote some notes on how to play his songs and posted them to me .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeBI-1Kqyxs

Love his cover of this song and it was the first time i heard it so he made it his in my eyes .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOz8jP1n9dk

Rock on rick
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  #36  
Old 06-24-2017, 09:54 AM
JonPR JonPR is offline
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Originally Posted by perttime View Post
We have technical explanations, so far ... but what does a minor key DO?

To me, songs played in minor key and/or using minor chords often get a melancholy mood.
Yes.

There are many aspects of music which contribute to its mood, and many of them will outweigh the major-minor difference. E.g., obvious things like how fast or loud a piece is played - hard for a fast tune to sound sad!

But I think you can say, if all else is equal, that minor keys contribute a kind of moody intensity to the music. Major keys (like major chords) are "open", "simple", "positive", "strong". Minor keys (like minor chords) sound more "complex", "darker".
Those differences don't necessarily equate to "happy/sad".
Fast minor key tunes will sound energetic - the "dark" quality comes out as intensity.
Slow major key songs may sound wistful, bittersweet - reflective or nostalgic, but never really sad, because they retain the "bright" simplicity of major.

A nice example of up-tempo minor key is REM's Losing My Religion. It's not a "sad" song, but the minor key does express the sense of confusion or regret in the lyrics. It wouldn't be so effective in a major key - while to play it at a slower tempo would make it too melancholy. (One interesting element in the song: in the bridge it goes briefly to the relative major - as he sings "that was just a dream" - as if the major key is saying phew it's nothing to worry about! - but then it plunges back to the minor after just 4 bars, on "that's me in the corner".)

An example of bittersweet major key is Rainy Night in Georgia. It expresses bittersweet nostalgia perfectly, via its maj7 chords: major chords with major 7ths added. Again, not "happy" - because it's slow - but not depressingly miserable either, because it's major. It may be melancholy, but it's the kind of melancholy that it feels good to wallow in now and then.
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  #37  
Old 06-24-2017, 10:36 AM
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rick-slo rick-slo is offline
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Originally Posted by perttime View Post
I wouldn't say happy vs. sad, exactly. That is too extreme. Even cheerful vs. resigned is a bit too much for the feeling I tend to get.

Do you get some feeling about songs in Major vs. minor? Or even just hearing the scale played?

There must be some reason why they are differentiated - in addition to technical explanations.
Shared overtones is the reason.
For example the major third interval C to E.
C note overtones include notes that form a C chord (C-E-G).
E note overtones include notes that form a E chord (E-G-B).
Between the two E and G are shared overtones.
Compare that to the overtones of a minor third interval.
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  #38  
Old 06-25-2017, 01:28 PM
FwL FwL is offline
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Just some random thoughts to muddy up the water a bit.

Relative major and minor -

This simple concept causes a lot of confusion about major and minor keys.

The 101 level theory book usually says something to the effect of starting the major scale on the 6th degree gives you the minor scale. They share the same key signature etc, etc.

This leads to the type of questions we see in this thread. Why bother to call C the major key and A the minor key if they're just the same notes and chords?

I'll leave the history lessons for JonR. Let's just say that early composers discovered an interesting phenomenon. You can take a group of Notes and/or chords and by how you arrange them, you can get the listener to hear different notes/chords within the group as being the main or most important note/chord. We'll call this most important note/chord Tonic (fancy way of saying "the tone").

Let's look at the chords that come from the C major scale (called diatonic which is a fancy way of saying "using only notes from the scale"):

C Dm Em F G Am Bdim


Of all these chords, the C is the easiest to make sound like the tonic. If you play a simple progression like so:

C Am F G C


There isn't really any question that C is home base for the progression. The music sounds like it comes to rest on the C chord.

Composers discovered that, without much effort, you can also make the Am chord sound like home base. Try the same progression again, but this time end on Am:

C Am F G Am


You may not hear the music come to full stop like ending on the C chord, but there's some confusion. It sounds like maybe A minor is home base. And that's not doing anything but changing the chord you end on. If you start mixing things up bit, you can strengthen the sound of Am as tonic:

C Am F Em Am


If we leave out the C chord altogether, you can really start to hear the Am as tonic:

Am F G Am

Am G F Em Am

Am Dm Am Em Am


This tendency for either C or Am to sound like the tonic has sponsored a lot of music that modulates (shifts the tonic emphasis) between the relative major and minor. It's very common to start a piece off based on the major, shift to minor part way through and shift back to major for the end. The opposite is also common... start minor, shift to major, end minor.

Try this:

C F G C - C F G C - Am Em Am Dm - Am F G C


You can make other chords in the group sound like the tonic as well, but it takes a little more work to do so. The C and Am just seem to be made for the job more than the other chords.

This sponsored the concept of keys with the minor key being built on the 6th degree of the major key and both sharing the same key signature.

---------------------------------------


Now, once you have the idea that the tonic can be either major or minor, you start seeing them as separate entities. One way of doing this that composers discovered is modulating to the parallel minor instead of the relative minor... starting on C major, shifting to C minor, shifting back to C major.

Composers also began adding diatonic and non-diatonic notes to the harmony and melody to further strengthen the major and minor tonic. In the major key, adding an F note to the G chord (G7 chord) seemed to push that chord towards the tonic (C chord). In the minor key they discovered the same tendency by changing the G note to G# and adding the D note to the E chord (E7). In parallel this simply means that you can use a G7 chord to set up either C major or C minor.


In classical theory language this is presented as:

Any note can be made to sound like the tonic. This establishes the key.

There are two common modes/scales used to determine the tonality of the key... major and minor.

Although there are a few common major and minor scales that are used more than others, any mode/scale/chord can potentially be used within a key without weakening the sense of tonic.

This includes using the entire chromatic scale within a given key.


A brilliant example of this is Rimsky-Korsakov's "Flight of the Bumble Bee" where he takes a melody that is pretty much a chromatic frenzy and grounds it in solid minor key harmony.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QV1RGMLUKE

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  #39  
Old 06-26-2017, 06:00 AM
Bronsky Bronsky is offline
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Originally Posted by JonPR View Post
Right. But it's all down to history, not logic!

If I can try and make a very long story stupidly short....

Back in the middle ages, the modal system ruled European music. This means FOUR modes, based on the notes we now call ABCDEFG. No sharps or flats. The four "authentic" modes were Dorian (DEFGABCD), Phrygian (EFGABCDE), Lydian (FGABCDEF) and Mixolydian (GABCDEFG). No Ionian, no Aeolian. No "keys" of any kind.

Each mode could be extended down below their roots by a 4th, to form the so-called "plagal" modes. E.g., "Hypodorian" (meaning "lower dorian") was ABCDEFGA.
The important point here is that the root note or "final" of Hypodorian was still D, not A. A wasn't the root of anything. If you want a modern comparison, think of "Happy Birthday". The tune covers an octave, from the 5th to the 5th of the scale. The keynote is the 4th up from the lowest note. This means it uses the "plagal range" of the major scale. If it starts on a G note (lowest note in the tune), it means the key is C major - not G major or G mixolydian.
IOW, lowest notes are just lowest notes - not necessarily keynotes.

I.e., the reason A is called "A" is just because it was the lowest note of all the notes in use at the time. (Probably because it was comfortable low note for most men to sing - which is still the case with our modern A of 110 Hz.)
The entire range in use covered two octaves, from the bottom A of Hypodorian to the top G of Mixolydian. (Equivalent to guitar A string up to G on fret 3 of top E.) Remember this is all about men singing, and very few men can comfortably get much higher or lower than that without straining.
A little later a bottom G was added, labelled as the Greek letter gamma. And an additional higher octave was added on top, for boys or male counter-tenors.

This modal system lasted for around 1000 years, from the 6th century to the 16th. But of course it underwent substantial (if slow) evolution over that period. To begin with, there was no harmony. Singers sang in unison or in octaves. Then perfect 4ths and 5ths were allowed (the "perfect consonances"), in a system known as "organum".
The problem they encountered then was that the modes contained a tritone: F-B, or B-F; an augmented 4th or diminished 5th. This sounded dissonant, so it was avoided. (It was never called "diabolus in musica" at that time, nor ever considered satanic ) Whenever harmonies threatened to approach the tritone, one of the notes would be raised or lowered. Normally it was the B that would be flattened.
This was enough to take care of things for centuries. No other "accidentals" were needed. The use of Bb meant that modes could be transposed. Eg., you could now have a G dorian if you wanted it, or an A phrygian. Wow, the freedom! (This principle of altering the modes to make them run more smoothly was known as "musica ficta".)

It wasn't until the middle of the 16th century that Ionian and Aeolian were finally added to the official theory texts - meaning they had probably been creeping in for decades in practice. (AFAIK, Ionian had been popular with the earlier troubadours, meaning the church would have considered it crude or rude - think of how rock'n'roll was regarded by religious authorities in the mid-50s, or how rap is viewed now.)

Harmonic practices had been developing for some time, and by the 16th century the notion of "keys" was starting to take hold. The way accidentals were acting - particular Bb and F# - seemed to be making Dorian gravitate to Aeolian (by lowering its 6th) and Lydian to Ionian (lowering its 4th), while adding F# to mixolydian made it resemble Ionian. So it was as if Ionian and Aeolian were the inevitable result of all that avoidance of the tritone: the modes that the new harmonic practices were pointing towards.

Moreover, the new system of triadic harmony - since 3rds had become acceptable consonances - meant the tritone could be handled. Yes, it was still dissonant - but move each note by one step, and it became a consonant 3rd (root position or inverted to a minor 6th). B-F could be used, because the tension could be resolved by following it with C-E.

This is what the new system of "keys" or "tonality" was all about: the deliberate use of harmonic tensions to set up movement through a sequence. It was rather like discovering that fire wasn't just a destructive thing to be avoided, but it could be harnessed for heating and cooking. The key system (major and minor) harnessed dissonance for creative purposes.

Ionian was naturally suited to this harmonic system because of how the tritone resolved. The natural root of C and E (even when E is on the bottom) is C, Ionian's root. C-E are also chord tones of Am, which helped aeolian become the essential "dark" counterpart to the relative major. (Previously the modes had divided into major - lydian, mixolydian - and minor - phrygian, dorian. Ionian and Aeolian were like the average mid-points of each of those pairs.)
All that the minor key needed was the leading tone to the root, hence the convention of "harmonic minor", raising the 7th step whenever the root was approached from below. This was only the same sort of thing that "musica ficta" had been doing for centuries, adjusting scales to make harmonies work better.

The interesting thing about this "major-minor key system" is that - while the extraordinary edifice of classical music was built on it - it had essentially burnt itself out after around 300 years (unlike that 1,000 year modal system, itself deriving from the even older Greek system). The Post-Romantic composers of around 100 years ago considered it worn out. All its tricks had been exploited, there was nothing new to be found in it. Hence the 20thC moves into impressionism, serialism, etc., the search for fresh new musical languages. Jazz followed suit around 50 years later when the avant garde tried to clear the decks of standard jazz harmony and try "modal jazz" (a mix of classical impressionism and African and Indian folk music).
Meanwhile, popular music of all kinds never got bored with the key system. The whole point of "popular" music is to be popular, and most audiences like what they know, what's familiar. The avant garde never gets very far in the pop sphere. You can't singalong with Schoenberg, any more than you can with Ornette Coleman.
So the key system is alive and well in pop and rock music - even if it has been roughed up somewhat by modal sensibilities: had its corners knocked off, had its tie loosened, its jacket unbuttoned, its neat hair messed up a litte. That strict classical system has been dragged out of its ivory tower into the market place and on to the dirty streets. It's had to learn some new slang...
Wow.
I sure am glad I started this thread!
Thanks to all who contributed such instructive answers!
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  #40  
Old 06-29-2017, 11:00 PM
1neeto 1neeto is offline
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I used to be all confused about the relative minor to a major scale, but then when you play it, even though it's the same notes, it does sound different because of the root. Here's a good video that shows popular songs originally recorded in major, transposed into the minor scale. The guy is silly as hell but there's good playing.

https://youtu.be/DzGSRI827IQ
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