Bass Traps and Foam: Seeking advice

[Guitar Slim II]

Originally Posted by Truckjohn

To the OP...

You say you are already recording in there... How is your recording experience in this room going?

Are you experiencing any of the problems you are talking about?
Weird echo's, rumbly hollow bass that doesn't belong, stray "house" noises like pops, creaks, etc.... Do you have to consciously work to avoid clicking noises or tapping noises or whatever?

If its already going well enough and you aren't having problems - why drop a bunch of cash?

Yeah, the bass is definitely boomy, I have to roll it off on virtually all guitar recorded in this room. (Could it be proximity effect? mics are 12-24" from the guitar).

And there's often a hollow, cardboard-sounding frequency somewhere in there that muddies things up. My non-engineer ears can't really pinpoint the frequency.

Could it be the mics? I suppose, but based on what I've been reading lately, it sounds like at least part of it could be room...

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Guitar Slim II

Yeah, the bass is definitely boomy, I have to roll it off on virtually all guitar recorded in this room. (Could it be proximity effect? mics are 12-24" from the guitar).

And there's often a hollow, cardboard-sounding frequency somewhere in there that muddies things up. My non-engineer ears can't really pinpoint the frequency.

Could it be the mics? I suppose, but based on what I've been reading lately, it sounds like at least part of it could be room...

Routinely high pass filter somewhere between 40 to 50 Hz (proximity effect existing or not).

Try a narrow Q frequency sweep once you have a DAW and a decent equalizer to pinpoint offending frequencies.

[Guitar Slim II]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Routinely high pass filter somewhere between 40 to 50 Hz (proximity effect existing or not).

Try a narrow Q frequency sweep once you have a DAW and a decent equalizer to pinpoint offending frequencies.

Kind of off topic, but since I'm the OP, maybe some more mixing advice? And it does relate to the room.

On my classical guitar recordings, I've been handling the bass this way: First, I roll the high-pass/low-cut filter all the way down and sweep it until I find the point where the pitches of the lowest bass notes become distinct and clearly audible (usually around 250 Hz, an octave or two above the fundamentals). Then I try to bring the cut frequencies back up to to a point where it sounds bigger and warmer, but not too loud or boomy. I'm not doing any additional cutting below 50 Hz.

Is this a wise way to work with bass? Are my ears trying to compensate for a room issue?

Also, the narrow-Q sweep thing...I know how to do this. I've used a notch filter to reduce actual noise like hiss and hum. But trying to isolate something subtle, broad-spectrum, and difficult to separate from the original signal? My ears just aren't good enough for that. I've been trying to EQ the "carboard" out of my recordings for years, without much success...

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Guitar Slim II

Kind of off topic, but since I'm the OP, maybe some more mixing advice? And it does relate to the room.

On my classical guitar recordings, I've been handling the bass this way: First, I roll the high-pass/low-cut filter all the way down and sweep it until I find the point where the pitches of the bass notes become distinct and clearly audible (usually around 250 Hz, an octave or so above the fundamental). Then I try to bring the cut frequencies back up to to a point where it sounds bigger and warmer, but not too loud or boomy. I'm not doing any additional cutting below 50 Hz.

Is this a wise way to work with bass? Are my ears trying to compensate for a room issue?

Also, the narrow-Q sweep thing...I know how to do this. I've used a notch filter to reduce actual noise like hiss and hum, or slightly cut or boost the tone of the guitar. But trying to isolate something subtle, broad-spectrum, and difficult separate from the original signal? My ears just aren't good enough for that. I've been trying to fix this particular issue with EQ for years, without much success...

Get a spectrum analyzer plugin if you don't already have one. You will see a lot of low frequency content in your recordings. The lowest fundamental frequency from the guitar strings in around 80 hertz in standard tuning. Frequencies lower than that come from the environment - your body movement, other noises from both inside and outside of the house.

Nylon strings play nicer that steel strings for recording IMO since usually the trickiest problem is a bit of harshness on the treble strings that lies somewhere in the 4000 to 6000 hertz range. For these higher frequencies use a quite high Q (narrow frequency range) and sweep the area with a 6 decibels or more boost to look for the guilty frequencies. For checking lower frequencies lower the Q.

Generally I try to avoid any equalization other than a high pass filter. Too many other needed tweaks usually calls for a re-recording the tune.

BTW if you care to you could post a clip of a raw recording of yours you feel was recorded well. I, and possible others, could play with it.

[Halcyon/Tinker]

I did my room with a LEDE approach and it's only 12' long. With a 20' room, you could really make a great space for both recording and mixing I think.

It helps to actually test what is happening in your room. You set up a pretty good flat response mic at the listening position, run a 20-20,000hz signal through the speakers and record what the mic hears, which will show the dips and humps of the eq spectrum as it actually occurs in the room. I used a program called Room EQ Wizard (or something like that) that shows an analysis of what freqs are causing trouble, and how long they cause the trouble.

You can use that data to target the specific problems.

In my case I was having a lot of comb filtering, so I designed and built a step well diffusor for the back wall tuned specifically to the room, using a program found online which I can't remember the name of. Lots of them out there. This was for mixing, but helped to keep a bit of liveness to the room.

My sidewall absorbers for mixing are all convertible to diffusers depending on what I'm tracking. Guitar, drums, etc get diffusion, Vox get absorption.

But with a 20' long room, you should be able to set the front up for mixing, and design the back area for tracking and have a real sweet space.

And I would definitely put full height bass traps in each corner.

It's been a long time since I delved into this stuff but I got right down into it. If you use measurement tools to see what is actually happening, you can really do a good job of making things right.

And if you're crafty and take your time, you can also make things very attractive and have a real feel good vibe room to work in...

[Guitar Slim II]

Processing....please wait. Processing...please wait.

Thanks everyone, a lot to consider and contemplate. To answer a poster's question, I guess my status quo is "good enough." Good enough for the demos I hawk at gigs, good enough for Youtube vids to impress gullible parents.

But nothing I've ever produced at home is what I would call "master quality" or "radio ready". And I always wonder if I can squeeze a little more out of the space without investing a fortune and remodeling the entire basement.

It's clear the first thing to do is take some acoustic measurements to get a better idea of what I'm dealing with. The process of learning how to do this, I think, will probably help me understand the whole issue better.

So, more work to be done...

[alohachris]

Aloha Guitar Slim,

Here are some comprehensive links on how to design & construct DIY Room Treatment for your recording space.

Remember Slim, nothing will make a larger qualitative difference to your recordings than Room Treatment, my friend. Not even the gear! Do it right. Do it first.

Fran's DIY video's here are priceless.

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...-on-the-cheap/

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2011/...adband-panels/


The Godfather of Studio Acoustics is Ethan Winer. He has all the answers in these links. It's dense, but it's all here:

http://realtraps.com/

The Acoustic Bible:

http://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html


Another useful link is over at gearslutz. You can share ideas/pix with other newbie studio builders at that site:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/stud...ing-acoustics/

DIY Room Treatment will save you thousand$. It doesn't have to be permanent & can work well as portable gobos if you need the room for other uses.

Rough Blueprint

Meter the Room to find out where the Early Reflections & Standing Waves are. Controlling the reflections is the key to maximizing your gear & separating & balancing all frequencies. Without doing that, you cannot create consistent sounding tracks - which is the goal, right? Then design your treatment placement accordingly.

Modern software/hardware meter packages like XTC Room Analyzer & Dayton Audio Omnimic allow you to graphically see your room acoustics on a screen.

Using Fran's video, Make 2-9 4"x2'x4' broadband absorbers - USING OWENS-CORNING 703 Rigid Fiberglass ONLY. That's what studio's use, not foam or Roxul. Cover them in a nice fabric (mine's white burlap from Walmart). I ended up making 22 of these portable absorbers over a few year period as needed. They work in every room I use them.

Then, strategically place absorbers around & above your tracking space (Using a 'room within a room' design - I place two in front of the mic's, two behind me, two on each side, & two above me). Also, place absorbers above & around your mixing/mastering desk, even in the wall-ceiling corners. And, treat the room itself by placing absorbers as bass traps in the corners of the room. (I cut them to whatever size i need).

But treat your tracking area first. I like using portable, free-standing absorbers where I play so I can vary the spacing between absorbers for different effects - ex: more room or less room on the track sometimes helps a specific microphone or live mix.

If you need more specific tips & info, Slim, then please PM me.

"No, no, no. Ya don't want to work on your game. The whole point is just to have fun." Otter-Animal House.

Putting all this together shouldn't be thought of as "more hard work." Have fun throughout the learning & building process, Guitar Slim. You don't have to do it all in one day, right? Enjoy.

alohachris

PS: QUESTION: Why do 90% of home-made, acoustic youtube mp3. videos suck? ANSWER: NO Room Treatment!
-alohachris-

[Truckjohn]

Yep... Sounds like you need to do something.

While you are reading all that good stuff... Do some "proof of concept" runs with stuff like dumpster (new) carpet remnants. Often - you can get some really nice looking carpet scraps out of the dumpster in back of the carpet store at night....

Its not nearly as good as "The Good Stuff" - but it will let you fool around with the "What if I do this" stuff without dropping any cash. Then - replace it with real stuff once you kinda figure out where it needs to go..

Another pointer is talk up the guys at the local music store... There's always a couple recording nuts there... And they love to brag on their stuff... And often as not help others as well (so long as it doesn't cost them anything)... That can save a HUGE amount of time - as they have already been through this at least once...

[jim1960]

Originally Posted by Truckjohn

While you are reading all that good stuff... Do some "proof of concept" runs with stuff like dumpster (new) carpet remnants. Often - you can get some really nice looking carpet scraps out of the dumpster in back of the carpet store at night....

Its not nearly as good as "The Good Stuff" - but it will let you fool around with the "What if I do this" stuff without dropping any cash. Then - replace it with real stuff once you kinda figure out where it needs to go..

There's really nothing he'd have to prove. He can already hear the problem and the desired outcome is the same as anyone else treating a room for recording purposes: getting the sound waves room under control so his recordings improve.

Originally Posted by Truckjohn

Another pointer is talk up the guys at the local music store... There's always a couple recording nuts there... And they love to brag on their stuff... And often as not help others as well (so long as it doesn't cost them anything)... That can save a HUGE amount of time - as they have already been through this at least once...

I'd be leery of trying to recruit someone this way. The OP might find an enthusiastic novice who talks a better game than he plays and wind up with a room full of Auralex. There are plenty of professionals who can help the OP. In my own case, the folks at RealTraps gave me all kinds of great advice for treating my room.

[Halcyon/Tinker]

Aloha Chris' post is a data mine. Most of the info I used came from Ethan, it's the real goods. I also agree that room treatment is more important than a lot of other things in your signal path, start there

[MikeBmusic]

Originally Posted by Mbroady

Can you elaborate more on a mixing space vs a recording space.

Also, If the the best place in a room to monitor is 38% into the room, would that space also be the best location for mic placement to record in

AlohaChris' post has some great info.

For mixing, you want the least amount of 'room' affecting what you hear, so stopping reflections that interfere with what is coming out of your monitors and hitting your ears is crucial.

For tracking, having a 'dead' space (no reflections) can sound stifling or boxy depending on placement of the mic and instrument or voice - however, in a non-perfect space (and none of us have a perfect space in our home studios) the reflections being picked up by the mic can screw up the sound - making it too bass-y, or boxy or something. Finding the best spot in the room to set the mic (and pointing in what direction) and using movable gobo traps to stop unwanted reflections from hitting the mic is a matter of trial and error, but over time you'll get to 'know' your room and where to set up to track.

[Guitar Slim II]

Originally Posted by alohachris

Aloha Guitar Slim,

Here are some comprehensive links on how to design & construct DIY Room Treatment for your recording space.

Remember Slim, nothing will make a larger qualitative difference to your recordings than Room Treatment, my friend. Not even the gear! Do it right. Do it first.

Fran's DIY video's here are priceless.

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...-on-the-cheap/

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2011/...adband-panels/


The Godfather of Studio Acoustics is Ethan Winer. He has all the answers in these links. It's dense, but it's all here:

http://realtraps.com/

The Acoustic Bible:

http://ethanwiner.com/acoustics.html


Another useful link is over at gearslutz. You can share ideas/pix with other newbie studio builders at that site:

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/stud...ing-acoustics/

Priceless. Should be a sticky somewhere, thanks for this.

The OC 703 fiberglass looks like something I can work with and afford. Thanks again.

[rick-slo]

Considering I record with directional mikes (cardioid) and that volume falls off with distance I usually average better results with the mikes placed a two or three feet away from one wall pointed towards the other wall. Reflections from the far wall have traveled for a greater distance and thus are lower in volume. My recording space is approximately 14' by 19'.