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  #31  
Old 11-17-2017, 04:54 AM
AndrewG AndrewG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tony Done View Post
I was going to mention Greg's guitars. The whole thing is laminate, except for a bit of the lower bout top. IIRC, his price is Oz$40 thousand with a 10 year wait. If you can find one off-the-shelf from a dealer, it is US$60 thousand.
I've just 'bought' every guitar I always wanted with that $60k!
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  #32  
Old 11-17-2017, 08:29 AM
Theleman Theleman is offline
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I think the Samick looks like laminate spruce top. From the sound hole, when peeked into inside of the edge, I can see the top spruce layer which is the top of the body, and underneath the top, I can see another layer of unknown wood of some sort glued on. So the top is actually quite thick.

The S101 has only one layer of the spruce top, nothing underneath it.
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  #33  
Old 11-17-2017, 08:37 AM
merlin666 merlin666 is offline
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And we should also keep in mind that in lamination there is also glue used to hold the plys together. The amount and type of glue also plays a role.

However, when it comes to sides and backs there are thousands of threads on AGF where some people say the type of wood and if it's solid makes a systematic difference to tone, and just as many people say that it's just cosmetic and a matter of perception. So in practicality and in the absence of generally agreed upon characteristics it boils down to each individual and each individual guitar and how well they get along.
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  #34  
Old 11-17-2017, 08:49 AM
Swamp Yankee Swamp Yankee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martie View Post
Just a quick question:

I don't understand why manufacturers use laminated wood. To me, who knows nothing about guitar building whatsoever (and who's favourite guitar is actually all laminated! http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...d.php?t=489441) it just sounds like a bigger job than using one piece of wood - like, cut and shape one piece of wood or cut and shape several and stick 'em together! The former sounds straightforward, the latter like a pain in the ***.

What am I missing?
A number of considerations...for example, with Taylor -
- The use of poplar, which is a very inexpensive American hardwood, as a core wood - allows them to save costs by using very thin veneers of more expensive tone woods to cover the poplar core. One piece of solid exotic tonewood that would have made only one solid back and sides set - can therefore make backs and sides for a number of guitars. I believe I read once that Taylor's use of veneers allows them to make several guitars from a piece of wood that would have made one guitar if it were made with solid wood.

- I imagine it also allows them to be less picky about the pieces of exotic wood they use when they're freed from such considerations as how the solid wood will remain stable and not crack in the home environment. So they can make several back and sides sets from a piece of tonewood that's attractive, but would not be usable as a solid wood back and sides set for fear it would crack.

- Since they're using laminated woods, which are inherently more stable, they can save material and labor costs by eliminating the bracing in the guitar's back and simply pressing an arch into the laminated back.

- Since they're using laminated woods, which are inherently more stable, they're dealing with less cracked guitars coming back from dealers.
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  #35  
Old 11-17-2017, 09:12 AM
dgt178 dgt178 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewG View Post
Is $20,000+ priced accordingly enough for one of Greg Smallman's classical guitars with laminate back and sides? That's about the minimum you'll pay for a used model!
.....nope.....too rich for MY blood......give me an all solid Yamaha under 1k any day.....and I'll apply the 19k+ balance towards a new truck.....
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  #36  
Old 11-17-2017, 07:02 PM
CTGull CTGull is offline
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Seagull wild cherry laminates are made from 3 equal layers, the 2 outer layers are wild cherry, the inner layer is maple. No poplar here!
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  #37  
Old 11-17-2017, 09:40 PM
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The proof is in the pudding. Do you like the way it sounds or not. Take good care of the guitar and it probably will not matter one way or the other if it's laminate or not but if you like the way it sounds that is all that matters
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  #38  
Old 11-17-2017, 10:00 PM
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Guitar companies, and other companies that make things of wood work very hard to market their wares and they understand that how they describe their goods makes a big difference in public demand for their products. Choosing terms that make their products desirable is a big part of the industry. They understand that calling the wood they used "plywood" was making their guitars sound cheap since it reminded people of the cheap wood used in building houses. So, they started using the term "laminated" which of course means the exact same thing - three or more layers of very thin wood glued together, each at 90 degrees to the previous layer. Now, some companies such as Taylor are discovering that the term laminated is getting to the point where most buyers are seeing it designating a cheap guitar so they have put their marketing geniuses to work and have come up with another marketing term - layered - to mean the exact same thing but are hoping buyers will accept it better than they have been accepting the term laminated. Laminated wood does not get much of any tone from the woods used to build it up. It gets its tone from the overall shape of the sound box and the design of the bracing used. The top wood is just a decoration. Bob Taylor agrees with this. The reason laminated/layered/ply wood does not give much of any tonal quality from its woods used is the top layer and often the bottom layer as well are paper thin so they have no internal structure to speak of to vibrate. And they are slathered with glue and bonded to the middle layer (or layers) with their grains at 90 degrees which further binds up any possible internal structure from vibrating freely. The reason why inexpensive/affordable/student model/etc. guitars use laminated/layered/ply wood in the backs and sides, and sometimes their tops as well is because it is much less costly than solid woods. You make veneer by taking a log and mounting it on a giant lathe-like machine that spins it along its axis. Then you bring a blade that is as long as the log slowing up to the spinning log and barely touch it to the log. A paper thin sheet of wood comes off of the log and you very slowly move that blade towards the core of the log as you are getting a huge continuous sheet of veneer wood. The process continues until the log becomes a toothpick and no more veneer can be peeled off of it. This process gives you an enormous amount of veneer that is cut up into small sheets and used to make laminate/layered/ply wood decorative tops/bottoms. To make a solid wood guitar the log is cut with a saw. Better quality guitars are cut with a saw in such a way that every board cut from it is along the radius so that the growth rings are all upright at 90 degrees to the surface of the board. You do not get very many boards from a log when cutting it up like this and so each board is going to be fairly costly. Sheets of veneer for decoration and inexpensive grade woods for cores plus a bucket full of glue will give you inexpensive boards compared to solid boards of high quality tone wood. Also, laminated/layered/ply woods will need much less or no internal bracing saving even more money in manufacturing.

With acoustic guitars you really do get what you pay for.
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  #39  
Old 11-18-2017, 05:22 AM
N+1 N+1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim View Post
Laminated wood does not get much of any tone from the woods used to build it up. It gets its tone from the overall shape of the sound box and the design of the bracing used. The top wood is just a decoration. Bob Taylor agrees with this.

The reason laminated/layered/ply wood does not give much of any tonal quality from its woods used is the top layer and often the bottom layer as well are paper thin so they have no internal structure to speak of to vibrate. And they are slathered with glue and bonded to the middle layer (or layers) with their grains at 90 degrees which further binds up any possible internal structure from vibrating freely.
All very well argued. All very reasonable. And authoritatively confirmed by Bob Taylor's statements.

But now, go to a suitable guitar shop, i.e. a shop where you can play and hear:
1. A 214ce K DLX (solid spruce top, layered back and sides, Koa layers inside and out)
2. A 214ce QM DLX (solid spruce top, layered back and sides, Quilted Maple layers inside and out)

The differences will be so audibly self-evident - not at all subtle, but blindingly obvious - that the carefully reasoned argument will be abandoned immediately. I can only suppose that the tonewood layer on the inside (as well as outside, which is a feature of the 200 DLX series) has a bigger effect on the behaviour of the sound waves inside the body than we might expect.

So why does Bob say otherwise? I've heard it suggested that Andy Powers's recent revoicings have made the 200 series more sensitive to the changes in layerings, making them easier to hear. Bob's comments, I think (unless he's reiterated his opinion more recently), pre-date this. But of course I don't know what his present opinion is.
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  #40  
Old 11-18-2017, 06:12 AM
AndrewG AndrewG is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim View Post
Guitar companies, and other companies that make things of wood work very hard to market their wares and they understand that how they describe their goods makes a big difference in public demand for their products. Choosing terms that make their products desirable is a big part of the industry. They understand that calling the wood they used "plywood" was making their guitars sound cheap since it reminded people of the cheap wood used in building houses. So, they started using the term "laminated" which of course means the exact same thing - three or more layers of very thin wood glued together, each at 90 degrees to the previous layer. Now, some companies such as Taylor are discovering that the term laminated is getting to the point where most buyers are seeing it designating a cheap guitar so they have put their marketing geniuses to work and have come up with another marketing term - layered - to mean the exact same thing but are hoping buyers will accept it better than they have been accepting the term laminated. Laminated wood does not get much of any tone from the woods used to build it up. It gets its tone from the overall shape of the sound box and the design of the bracing used. The top wood is just a decoration. Bob Taylor agrees with this. The reason laminated/layered/ply wood does not give much of any tonal quality from its woods used is the top layer and often the bottom layer as well are paper thin so they have no internal structure to speak of to vibrate. And they are slathered with glue and bonded to the middle layer (or layers) with their grains at 90 degrees which further binds up any possible internal structure from vibrating freely. The reason why inexpensive/affordable/student model/etc. guitars use laminated/layered/ply wood in the backs and sides, and sometimes their tops as well is because it is much less costly than solid woods. You make veneer by taking a log and mounting it on a giant lathe-like machine that spins it along its axis. Then you bring a blade that is as long as the log slowing up to the spinning log and barely touch it to the log. A paper thin sheet of wood comes off of the log and you very slowly move that blade towards the core of the log as you are getting a huge continuous sheet of veneer wood. The process continues until the log becomes a toothpick and no more veneer can be peeled off of it. This process gives you an enormous amount of veneer that is cut up into small sheets and used to make laminate/layered/ply wood decorative tops/bottoms. To make a solid wood guitar the log is cut with a saw. Better quality guitars are cut with a saw in such a way that every board cut from it is along the radius so that the growth rings are all upright at 90 degrees to the surface of the board. You do not get very many boards from a log when cutting it up like this and so each board is going to be fairly costly. Sheets of veneer for decoration and inexpensive grade woods for cores plus a bucket full of glue will give you inexpensive boards compared to solid boards of high quality tone wood. Also, laminated/layered/ply woods will need much less or no internal bracing saving even more money in manufacturing.

With acoustic guitars you really do get what you pay for.
As mentioned earlier Australian luthier Greg Smallman has a 25 year
waiting list for his laminated classical guitars. He'll be asking around $30,000. John Williams and Carlos Bonell definitely believe they get what they are paying for. My 750S sounds like a maple guitar, and my LJ6 sounds like a rosewood guitar, so I'm afraid I can't agree with your assertion.
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  #41  
Old 11-18-2017, 02:01 PM
jonbee jonbee is offline
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I've owned a number of solid "one piece" wood Guild, Hofner, Yamahas, Taylors, etc. at various price points and years. I've owned 2 "laminated" acoustic guitars, both by Yairi, who uses 2 layers of identical tonewoods in parallel, not alternating different woods at 90 degrees like plywood. Thus, the Yairis are "laminated solid wood", if that makes sense.
I feel the lower priced "solid wood" guitars often use heavy but durable modern urethane finishes, which dilutes and dampens the finer harmonic and overtone benefits of the woods chosen.
Both Yairis are the equal of the best of what I've owned overall- tonality, clarity, sustain, complex overtones, projection- all the things you expect to find in real quality instruments. My 1986 DY-90 is the overall equal of anything I've ever played. Not really "better" than my superb cedar/walnut Taylor 416CE Ltd, but with quite a different personality.
Curiously, both Yairis (DY-74,DY-90) are dreadnoughts that spec the same woods, dimensions and published construction details, but while similar they don't sound nearly the same, even with the same strings. I guess that disproves the value of "drinking by the label".
So- which is better- "solid wood" or "laminated"? It depends, and other elements play at least an important a role. And as always, it is your ears that will tell you the truth- for you!

Last edited by jonbee; 11-18-2017 at 02:14 PM.
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  #42  
Old 11-18-2017, 02:24 PM
zombywoof zombywoof is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wade Hampton View Post
No, actually, it was Epiphone in the early 1930's, back when Epiphone was still an independent company based in New York. Gibson in the US and Selmer over in France quickly followed suit - all of those Selmer and Selmer Maccaferri "gypsy jazz" guitars, as made famous by Django Reinhardt, had solid tops with laminated backs and sides:
You are spot on in that Epiphone was the first U.S. company to build with laminate although it was earlier than the 1930s. Their first Recording Model flattops introduced in the late 1920s were built with laminate. Gibson followed suit in the mid-1930s building models such as the LC.
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  #43  
Old 11-18-2017, 02:35 PM
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Even a laminated structure like the guitar back is going to vibrate if it is thin enough and lightly braced. If it is built to take a 12 year old dropping it while riding his bike to class, maybe not.
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  #44  
Old 11-18-2017, 07:22 PM
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I just finished working on 1976 Yamaha FG-110-1. All laminate construction and sounds amazing. I read a few years back that Yamaha used the same type of wood for the three layers of their lamination process. I'm not sure if this is true, but the 70's and 80's Yamahas I've worked on over the last two years sound better than the all laminated guitars produced by their competitors.
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  #45  
Old 11-18-2017, 08:16 PM
rwmct rwmct is offline
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Are the Poplar laminated back and sides made and assembled the same way solid mahogany, maple or rosewood back and sides are made and assembled (other than the veneers being added for aesthetics)?

I ask because my impression is that the laminated guitars made by companies like Taylor really are solid wood guitars, it is just that the wood is poplar. The laminates are very thin. I have a hard time believing they have a great affect on the tone. The tone is poplar.

If what you get with a high quality laminate is essentially solid poplar back and sides, then referring to it as "plywood" is very misleading, IMO. Most high quality plywood with veneers that I am familiar with have nothing like a solid core of hard wood.

It is one thing to say that you want solid mahogany or solid rosewood, because you want your guitar made from those tonewoods. You don't get that with a laminate guitar.

Anyone ever seen a guitar where they just used the poplar and did not put the veneers on for looks?
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