Tabs only build muscle memory in me...

[pf400]

Is there a difference between playing from muscle memory and otherwise ?

I'm confused, but I think I learn the lyrics of a song practically the same way that I learn a fingerstyle piece....practicing and learning from the sheet until it just gets memorized.

I do find though, that I make make errors playing than I do recalling lyrics. Usually this is because my mind wonders while playing a piece - even one I've played 100times before. Sometimes it's just very hard to quickly hit a complex chord without misplacing a finger. Also, I still recall the lyrics of songs from decades ago, but recalling how to play these songs on guitar is tough unless I practice alot.

Singing seems to be more of a "commitment" to what you are doing, so you screw up less. Make sense ?

I just memorize how to play a fingerstyle piece, usually ignore or even forget the chords I'm playing, have no idea of how the notes fit into a scale, even what key the piece is in . I can play well over 100 fingerstyle instrumentals and am still learning more, slowly, new songs all the time. Takes me a long time to learn a new arrangement but I'm in no hurry.

So is "muscle memory" really just your brain storing and recalling where to put your hands and fingers in proper time ? If so how is this different than recalling a song, a prayer, a poem, or even speaking a language ? The process seems to be the same to me whether I have guitar in hand or not, exccept for the additional element of physical movement when playing.

We can all "recall a song without singing or speaking the lyrics", and we also recall the song and sing it. Same process ? Or perhaps the latter uses the exact same process as when we physically play a piece ? In other words, singing a song only uses muscle memory...right ?

It seems to me that some folks belittle guitar players who play from muscle memory, whatever that is. Sure we just learned the mechanics by memory, without going the hard process of learning theory, but hey we can do it, it sounds great, and makes people happy. We can even create our own music and replay it just from "muscle memory". What's wrong with this ?

Kudos to all how know how to sight read, play from scales, CAGED systems, inversions, modes etc etc. Many folks look up to you. But don't look down on them for their lack of knowledge....

[amyFB]

reliance on tab or notation has caused the same problem for me; can't start any song in the middle.

I am working to re-see the chords I know.

They are no longer just shapes that move around the neck,

They are also a collection of chord tones, each tone of which corresponds to a scale position.

Within the chord, the tones individually make up some or all of the melody.

And in between chord changes, there are some other of the melody notes that I can hope to hit on the way from one chord to the next. (once my mind's eyesight has improved, that is)

[DaveKell]

Originally Posted by amyFB

reliance on tab or notation has caused the same problem for me; can't start any song in the middle.

I am working to re-see the chords I know.

They are no longer just shapes that move around the neck,

They are also a collection of chord tones, each tone of which corresponds to a scale position.

Within the chord, the tones individually make up some or all of the melody.

And in between chord changes, there are some other of the melody notes that I can hope to hit on the way from one chord to the next. (once my mind's eyesight has improved, that is)

So glad to know I'm not the only one. I almost believe learning a song with tabs is like learning foreign languages in phrases that still leave you unable to understand the native speakers response to you. Toby Walkers new DVD Take a Solo is the closest thing to. An epiphany I've had in forever. He shows you a way to think beyond tabs and it is improving my playing exponentially. What I end up playing now is MINE. I can jump in anywhere and run with it. It may just put an end to my reliance on tabs for good for the music I want to play.

[Pualee]

Originally Posted by DaveKell

Toby Walkers new DVD Take a Solo is the closest thing to. An epiphany I've had in forever. He shows you a way to think beyond tabs and it is improving my playing exponentially. What I end up playing now is MINE. I can jump in anywhere and run with it.

I don't have a lot of experience (playing less than 2 years), but I've had a similar effect with that DVD. I just learn the key of the song, the chord progression (I enjoy theory), and then make up the solo parts (although I don't play blues so my note choices are different). It was surprisingly easy after watching that DVD. I do still analyze other music to see how the solos work (both tab and sheet music), but now I am looking for specific things... where are the roots, 5ths, accidentals, where do they interact with the chords, etc. I don't really care about repeating it, so much as understanding it and hearing it.

Not that all that is really in the DVD, but enough of it was there to make me connect the dots. It is also sooooooo much easier to make my own solo than learn someone else's. I used to spend weeks trying to get a few lines down, but now, it is literally a half hour of looping the rhythm, and then I have a nice solo... and then when I play out.. I've go it. Not only that, if I make a mistake, I know how the solo should resolve and work out... I made all those mistakes working it out the first time and can literally just work them through the song.

[Paultergeist]

Originally Posted by JonPR

My experience is exactly the same with some classical pieces I learned from notation. So it isn't tab that's to blame.
IMO, it's a completely natural way for the brain to memorise a task such as playing a complex fingerstyle piece. You do it bit by bit, bar by bar, and string them together in a linear fashion.
.....I've often had the exact same experience of playing a piece from memory (that I might have learned 30 or 40 years ago) it goes perfectly up to a point and then -... there's a blank, like a link has dropped out of the chain. My aural memory of the piece is nowhere near good enough (note accurate) to work it out that way. I have to go back to the book.
.......

I appreciate this post........describes my personal history with classical guitar as well.......I guess it was not just myself dealing with this......

[Bern]

Personal speaking, tab or notation is a technical road map or blueprint of a piece of music. To internalize a piece I need to be able to sing the melody in my head otherwise my brain has trouble connecting with the physical aspects of playing. Basically, if you can't hear it, you can't play it.
BTW, Doug's description of Michael Chapdelaine's memorization method is very interesting.

[TomiPaldanius]

I can just tell my experience. I am graduated classical guitar teacher and my thought was that reading notation is the fastest way to learn and memorize songs. That is not correct. If you meet the best players out there you will realize soon that you need a new way to learn songs if you want to do things like the best players do. They don't learn from tabs or notation. It is all the way by ear and understanding the logic of certain chord forms/patterns.

Can you name even one great/top player who learns his songs with tabs/notation? Classical tradition excluded.

This skill is the most exciting skill any musician can have but it takes time to master and won't be easy. But learning from tabs was not for me and luckily I got out from it. Maybe biggest thanks go to Tommy Emmanuel and Richard Smith

[ukejon]

For me, the big step in learning someone else's tune is to "get it off the paper", no matter how it's notated. Tab, standard notation, chord chart, whatever, if you're reading the written music, or seeing it in your head, you haven't internalized the music. Ideally, you know in your ear and head, the chord progression, the melody, the bass line, and then the details of the arrangement.

I heard Michael Chapdelaine describe how he handles memory in a workshop once - he practices tunes in his head in incredible detail: "the first note is an A, it's on the 3rd string, 2nd fret, it's a quarter note, and I play with with my 2nd finger. The 2nd note is..." all the way thru the tune. Exhausting, and a kind of mechanical approach, but do that a few times, and I suspect you'll never forget the tune.

Another tip I picked up from Michael is to practice at half speed, with a metronome. It's good for cleanliness and technique, but it's also great for memory, because you're really focused on what you're playing. I've had this weird thing where I'm performing a tune, and suddenly start seeing the tune a new way, and I'm going "hmm, I never noticed that my hand plays that shape in this part before" :-) At that point I'm hosed. But by practicing at half-speed, I tend to notice this sort of thing in practice and it really gets burned into my memory, and I am less likely to forget. You also have time at half speed to really notice the chord progression, the bass line, etc.

I think memory and fingerstyle is always an ongoing issue, you're memorizing a lot of stuff in any arrangement! Every pro player I know talks about the need to do constant maintenance on their repertoire, no matter what approach you use.

Brilliantly stated, Doug. The problem is not the tab, that is just a means to an end. The real process is working to fully "own" the song by really forcing ourselves to think, as Doug suggests, about the internal relationship between the melody and chords and bass. Indeed, if you don't know the basic chord structure of the tune then getting lost will be quite easy.

With more complicated pieces learned from tab, such as Tommy E songs, I constantly play around with different approaches and different tempos. Look, he plays some tunes at a speed beyond my abilities. Thats expected. So I simply play a slower version, calm the song down a bit and change its basic feel. Still the same beautiful piece, just interpreted a bit differently.

So, +1 to all that Doug says....oh, and also play the song at least a 1000 times at the start. That really helps too.

[Luke_]

For me reading tabs is a simple way to break down the elements of things I'm not able to randomly pull outta my head. Repetition build muscle memory and also action without thought which are the essential tools to becoming a better player. If I learn how to apply these techniques in the future, all the practice will be worth it

[HHP]

One thing to note, no matter how you learned a tune, you can still forget it. I have a tune I've played for years, and recently found I had lost the B part. I would play about half the B part correctly and then veered off. I had recently learned another tune in the same key that had similar fingering. Half way through the B part, I would pick up the melody from the newer tune. Went back to my original notes and fixed it.

Seems muscle memory can be misled and the mind doesn't notice until you are in the middle of doing it. In this case, I kept playing the tune, it sounded OK as the two mixed passages were in the same key, but my mind didn't pick up that something was wrong until I heard what I was playing and realized it was not what I was trying to play.