How useful is learning scales for fingerstyle?

[s0cks]

Many guitarists learn scales quite early on. To the point that they are embedded in their muscle memory. The popular ones are the pentatonic boxes or the 3 notes-per-string boxes.

I understand the usefulness of this for rock/jazz/blues music and soloing. But how important is it for fingerstyle acoustic guitarists with a more folky/pop vibe? Should I be learning them to the point they are embedded in my muscle memory?

It's not that I don't know scales. I know the major and natural minor (I even understand some of the other modes). I just don't know them to the point that they are embedded in my muscle memory. Is this worth learning? Or is chord construction more important for this style of play?

The one use I can see for them is playing a lick between or over a chord. But maybe there's a better, more useful way, to learn them for fingerstyle (e.g learning the play the relevant scale mode over each chord in the scale).

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by s0cks

Many guitarists learn scales quite early on. To the point that they are embedded in their muscle memory. The popular ones are the pentatonic boxes or the 3 notes-per-string boxes.

I understand the usefulness of this for rock/jazz/blues music and soloing. But how important is it for fingerstyle acoustic guitarists with a more folky/pop vibe?

They seem to be doing it so they can play really fast while their backing band is playing behind them. Yeah, as a solo alt folk type, I don't know either. I, too, know all the scales and modes, but I haven't seen any reason to put them in muscle memory. I'll be interested to see what others say.

[s0cks]

Yeah, I don't know the modes by name. But I know in the major scale, for example, the IV chord has a #4 interval. The iii chord has a b2 interval. The V chord has a b7 interval, etc...

So my guess is that learning to play the correct scale mode under these chords in different positions on the neck would be fairly useful for fingerstyle. Simply learning to shred them all over the neck though, not so much.

[BernebeM50]

I like classical guitar music and I find having practiced scales help me play more smoothly. I also warm up each day with scales. They are important to me.

[Hurricane Ramon]

Hello Socks :

IMHO :

Melody , scales - notation - chord construction - triads - double stops - power chords & tabs all fit neatly into the language of music period ,
guitar included they are not the exception . .

The language of music - what is it - how is it used - why ?

[ It's a form of communication between ] :

• Song writers/composers
• Musicians

It's :

1. Concise
2. Exacting
3. Perfect

This method to teach a person how to play music and how to read a song's notation/tab never heard before and perform it is but one benefit .

If you think it logically why would you not want to learn this if it's available to be had free online , it is a no brainer to me .

Knowing this method is readily available should make a person , who is seriously into music , want to learn this method ASAP ,

Playing with others :

The Bee Gees didn't know music theory and stated it many times . They were fortunate that they developed their our musical language among themselves .
So in that kind of situation they solved it the same way with their our way of communication - brilliant they were .

The question is really about the individual's personal drive and dedication to learning how to play as good as their own talent allows them to achieve
and do it as fast as possible if you are really serious .

Some talented types need only a well made instrument and fly into it and intuitively just sail past everyone - those types are rare , especially if they have no issues
integrating into a duet - trio - combo fluidly making great music .

If you are one of those types I just described , read no further and ignore this post .

EZ :

HR

[FwL]

Originally Posted by s0cks

Many guitarists learn scales quite early on. To the point that they are embedded in their muscle memory. The popular ones are the pentatonic boxes or the 3 notes-per-string boxes.

I understand the usefulness of this for rock/jazz/blues music and soloing. But how important is it for fingerstyle acoustic guitarists with a more folky/pop vibe? Should I be learning them to the point they are embedded in my muscle memory?

It's not that I don't know scales. I know the major and natural minor (I even understand some of the other modes). I just don't know them to the point that they are embedded in my muscle memory. Is this worth learning? Or is chord construction more important for this style of play?

The one use I can see for them is playing a lick between or over a chord. But maybe there's a better, more useful way, to learn them for fingerstyle (e.g learning the play the relevant scale mode over each chord in the scale).

Regardless of how you pluck the notes it really comes down to what you want to accomplish. Want to improvise chord/melody like Joe Pass? Probably better know your way around the fingerboard. just want to learn a bunch of tunes from TAB found on the internet? Not so much need to know anything more than where to put your fingers.

I imagine you're somewhere between those two points, so you have to figure out how well you want to know something like major and minor scales and how much time you want to spend working on it.

Working on scales and modes unlocked everything for me on the guitar as well as music theory in general. The major scale forms the road map I follow anywhere I need to go on the fingerboard regardless of whether I'm improvising a lead or just strumming a simple rhythm. But I know it so well I can play it in my sleep anywhere on the neck in any key you want to pick. The same goes for each of the modes. I use this knowledge every time I pick up the guitar.

Also, like BernebeM50, I used scale practice to develop my facility on the instrument and I still go back to scale practice to maintain it.

Obviously I think scale practice is time well spent. The anti-scale/theory folks will probably be here soon to give you a different perspective.

.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by FwL

Regardless of how you pluck the notes it really comes down to what you want to accomplish. Want to improvise chord/melody like Joe Pass? Probably better know your way around the fingerboard. ...

Working on scales and modes unlocked everything for me on the guitar as well as music theory in general. The major scale forms the road map I follow anywhere I need to go on the fingerboard regardless of whether I'm improvising a lead or just strumming a simple rhythm.

.

I'm really interested in this question, too, so I hope you don't mind me jumping in here. I'm pretty sure that the OP is not asking how important is theory or knowing the fretboard, but I'll just speak for myself. I know theory. I know the fretboard. I know scales and modes.

The question here is only about learning the physical shape of the scale so that it can be played very quickly, automatically. It's a matter of agility, not knowledge. Many of the shredders learning the minor pentatonic scale ONLY know that scale and really don't even know what it is, but they have muscle memory to play that shape very quickly. In fact, they often learn the minor pentatonic precisely so they don't have to learn any others because the minor pent can work over minor and major chords.

If you do think it's important to know how to play that shape quickly, can you please tell us how is it helpful to you apart from any other knowledge of theory or fretboard architecture?

[s0cks]

Yeah, SunnyDee understands what I'm asking here. I know the major/minor scale, but if you asked me to run up and down the scale, starting from any random scale degree, on any random string, I would have to think about it. I could play it, but it would be slow.

The only way for it to be quick would be to start learning the scale in a format that allows me to throw it into muscle memory. This is what many lead guitarists do. They learn the scale shapes from each degree of the scale (or as they often call it, the 7 boxes/positions).

So, how many of you have done this? I've got nothing against learning it, I'm just trying to evaluate how relevant it really is for fingerstyle folk/pop playing where blazing through a scale or lick doesn't seem to happen very often. I'm trying to make best use of my practice time.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by s0cks

Yeah, SunnyDee understands what I'm asking here. I know the major/minor scale, but if you asked me to run up and down the scale, starting from any random scale degree, on any random string, I would have to think about it. I could play it, but it would be slow.

sOcks, what is it that you are thinking when it slows you up? For example, I could play it on any key at the same pace I can play it anywhere (limited by my finger speed, not my knowledge) because the pattern is the same no matter where it is. Are you doing that? Or are you thinking of notes or what?

I made this chart for myself as a way of relating many of the common scales to each other that makes them, imo, much easier to learn. It also shows the modes as scale patterns and relates all of them to the chromatic scale so it's easy to see where the tones and semitones fall.


http://www.dee.email/OPEN/scalesmodes.jpg

[rick-slo]

Spend most of your time learning tunes and songs you like. You will learn about and practice the techniques contained within those songs by learning them to a high level of polish. You can use scale exercises as a warm up if you wish - it may improve your touch, speed, and interval recognition, but so can playing actual, real music.

[s0cks]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

sOcks, what is it that you are thinking when it slows you up? For example, I could play it on any key at the same pace I can play it anywhere (limited by my finger speed, not my knowledge) because the pattern is the same no matter where it is. Are you doing that? Or are you thinking of notes or what?

I made this chart for myself as a way of relating many of the common scales to each other that makes them, imo, much easier to learn. It also shows the modes as scale patterns and relates all of them to the chromatic scale so it's easy to see where the tones and semitones fall.

The pattern varies though, depending on your hand position. For example, are you starting the scale run on your index, middle, ring, or pinky? Are you starting on the root, 2nd, 3rd, etc...? 3 notes per string or a mix of 3 and 2 notes? Are you wanting to stay in one position, or ascend further up the neck to reach higher registers?

All these things will change how one would finger that particular scale run.

Secondly, I guess the word slow is ambiguous. By slow, I simply mean it's not a reflex, i.e. muscle memory.

On further reflection, I think what would be most useful for me is to run through the scale pattern based on the chord I'm playing. E.g if I'm playing the IV chord of the key, it would be useful to run through the lydian scale in that postion of the neck. So if I'm playing a Cmaj chord @ the 8th fret 6th string, and the song is in Gmaj then I would play within the C lydian scale in that portion of the neck. If that makes sense...

Rick, any suggestions for a fingerstyle song that incorporate some quickish scale runs?

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by s0cks

The pattern varies though, depending on your hand position. For example, are you starting the scale run on your index, middle, ring, or pinky? Are you starting on the root, 2nd, 3rd, etc...? 3 notes per string or a mix of 3 and 2 notes? Are you wanting to stay in one position, or ascend further up the neck to reach higher registers?

I only think of it as one pattern created of intervals for any given scale. I know how intervals lay on the fretboard, so it doesn't matter where I start or what finger, etc. In my perspective, the pattern doesn't change, so it wouldn't matter to me where on the neck it is, for instance, though I have to be mindful of the B string intervals.

The key is not to think of a pattern of shapes on the fretboard, but to think of the pattern of intervals, imo. The modes are just more patterns of intervals.

It is helpful to develop some motor memory of the one pattern for each scale, though.

[s0cks]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

I only think of it as one pattern created of intervals for any given scale. I know how intervals lay on the fretboard, so it doesn't matter where I start or what finger, etc. In my perspective, the pattern doesn't change, so it wouldn't matter to me where on the neck it is, for instance, though I have to be mindful of the B string intervals.

The key is not to think of a pattern of shapes on the fretboard, but to think of the pattern of intervals, imo. The modes are just more patterns of intervals.

It is helpful to develop some motor memory of the one pattern for each scale, though.

I agree. Trust me, I see everything as intervals, I've never learned shapes. But that just leads me back to my original post, can you blast through these without thinking? I would guess no based on your other responses, and that wouldn't surprise me. Every lead guitarist I've spoken to tends to give me the same response, and that is, they revert to muscle memory when things get fast.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by s0cks

I agree. Trust me, I see everything as intervals, I've never learned shapes. But that just leads me back to my original post, can you blast through these without thinking? I would guess no based on your other responses, and that wouldn't surprise me. Every lead guitarist I've spoken to tends to give me the same response, and that is, they revert to muscle memory when things get fast.

Yes, it brings it back to the original question, and you're right, no blasting, and that's why I'm interested to hear answers, too, although I have absolutely no ambition to be a lead guitarist playing minor pentatonic over someone else's chords.

[s0cks]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

Yes, it brings it back to the original question, and you're right, no blasting, and that's why I'm interested to hear answers, too, although I have absolutely no ambition to be a lead guitarist playing minor pentatonic over someone else's chords.

Same, but I have seen fingerstyle pieces that incorporate scale runs or licks (at speed) to great effect.