Less Quack?

[cwakefield06]

Intriguing thread title, no?

You were probably expecting another "no more quack" thread about how I'm worn out on the quack of a UST and you were therefore probably going to recommend a K&K system of some sort

No... I'm afraid I'm stuck as UST (LR Baggs Element) guy. I just play (probably) too loud, with (probably) too much low end, and almost always with bands. Adding a mic or SBT to the mix would probably not fly for the most part. But there's another side to this. In addition to being a musician, I'm also a sound engineer. When getting my tone, these two seem to conflict a bit. As a guitar player, I want a natural, full, realistic sound (aka NO quack). Alright, let's be honest, the guitar player in me hates the quack. But as a sound engineer, I need the sound to work in the context of a full band mix and end up having to really carve up that "natural, full sound." Being honest, the sound engineer in me needs the quack to help sit in the mix... er, at least SOME of it. But only some. I've especially been experimenting lately on way to cut out enough of the quack to make it sound like an actual guitar again, but leave enough so I have the cut needed to get through the mix without having to boost a bunch of frequencies.

You're probably going dude, just get an SBT, it's the perfect solution for you. I know... and I want to like the SBTs I've heard... and in fact, I do. They sound good; I'm just not overly impressed. To my ears, they sound like a UST with the high end rolled off some and that's really it. I feel like I replicate that sound regularly by running through an EQ. Note, I'm not dinging SBT users at all; just saying I'm not sure they're for me.

I've tried the Baggs Anthem and really wanted to love it, but just had lots of issues with it and very quickly ended up setting the blend back to all pickup and no mic anymore.

I've also gone magnetic (ES2) and while I pleasantly lost the quack, I gained rather unpleasant clang buried in some honky mids. Once I EQd the snot out of it, it wasn't bad, but just wasn't my thing either.

I have not looked super hard into trying to EQ some of the worst quack out; my focus has been more on the overall tone and how it sits with everything else. Anyone found any success in notching out certain frequencies?

My question is how do YOU toe this line? I know I must not be the only poor guitar player looking for less quack instead of no quack?

[CCoehick]

I used a Fishman Aura Spectrum DI. That allowed me to dial in as much "natural" acoustic tone as I wanted.

Just sold it because my new Taylor with the ES2 doesn't really need it. I was able to pick up a TC Play Acoustic instead, which also might help your problem with the BodyRez function.

[lmacmil]

Originally Posted by cwakefield06

No... I'm afraid I'm stuck as UST (LR Baggs Element) guy. I just play (probably) too loud, with (probably) too much low end, and almost always with bands.

I've got a Baggs M1A in one guitar and have used the Element in my Martin. I think the Element sounds a little more natural and even though I'm a fairly aggressive strummer, I haven't found the quack too objectionable and it's less noticeable than the Fishman Sonicore that preceded it. I play either solo or with a bass player, i.e., not overly loud.

The general consensus seems to be that the soundhole pickup is best in a loud band situation (due to feedback resistance) and when you've got bass, drums and perhaps keyboards and an electric guitar, who's going to notice if the acoustic tone is not very realistic?

You can pick up a used M1 or M1A on Ebay for about $100. If you don't like it, you can sell it for about $100 so it will only cost Ebay fees and shipping to try one out.

[ricdoug]

Also, as a musician and live sound engineer, I deal with the same. Getting the whole band to reduce the stage volume will allow you to get a cleaner sound. Other than that, try playing a Telecaster through a D.I. into an acoustic amplifier or P.A. system. Ric

[jseth]

A theory of mine is that the amount of "quack" is very much dependent on the player's attack... the smoother and more even right hand technique, the less of that annoying quack comes through...

Try to lighten up your right hand and keep it more even throughout (albeit with dynamic rise and fall)... see if that helps the issue.

I really think that UST pickups are very useful, especially in the "band" situation you describe... learning to work with it is the trick!

[Vancebo]

I see your point. I have spent a lot of time and $$$ trying to get a natural sound that would work on a band situation and also work in a solo situation. I could get my guitar to sound fine (not great) through the floor monitor (it is only a cheap floor monitor) only to find that the guy in the sound booth had what seemed like only the highest frequencies 2.5k on up coming through the mains. He was carving out places for vocals, bass and electric to cut through and what was left was that jangly mess. On quieter more acoustic moments he turned off the high pass filter so my low end would be there.

At one point in my venture I had the best of the best. Guitar, K and K/DPA mic set up through a Pendulum SPS 1. It was rockin. Only to hear what was coming through the mains was a fraction of what I hoped it would be. Turned out that it wasn't worth the effort for me. Currently my Lyric is doing well. I also have been experimenting with the ES2 which is peizo based BTW, not magnetic, and I see how someone might not like the thick mid range quality of that pick-up. Again, with good EQ, it sound pretty good.

I agree with your assessment. It's a problem we acoustic players deal with that is unique to us. A typical UST introduces an unwanted distortion when playing at higher volumes. I would rather start with a "quack free" tone to begin with then trying to make a bad sound, sound good. Start with a good sound and make it work for your situation.

[alohachris]

Aloha cwakefield,

You have the answer & know it well as an engineer: bring the right tools for the gig/venue/situation - throughout your whole signal chain. Be prepared for things that always come up at gigs (like a crowd getting larger & rowdier or some friends coming to sit in). To eliminate quack, the main tools you need are a different type of pickup (preferably in a dual-source system) & some great EQ.

Making compromises towards a "workable" sound is very much a part of the acoustic gigger's experience, especially if you're playing in bands w/ louder instruments. For example, many times, I simply left the acoustic guitars at home & brought a Variax when the volumes were crazy, rock heavy. Why fight it?

If you are trying to achieve a natural acoustic sound with a single pickup of ANY kind - especially UST's, it is not possible, cwake. Dual-source systems w/ an SBT & a mic give you lots more flexibility, control & better sound. For example, you could adjust the blend of the two sources to best accommodate your heavy strumming. I readjust mine all the time for that purpose.

From the beginning, with Takamine's first onboard pickups, UST's have always sounded offensively quacky to me - & to audiences. I've watched other players' especially brittle, grating UST's (used alone w/o controls through an amp) clear out audiences prematurely because of ear fatigue - whether they knew why or not. Plus, UST's always lose their string-to-string response over time - every one of them. For that & many other reasons, I finally got into dual-source systems (making most of my own in the 70's-90's) that included an SBT & an internal, hyper-cardioid condenser mic. Combined with the right controls (self-made splitter/ DI's) & EQ'ing the two separate channels @ the board, I was able to achieve more natural live acoustic sound AND also control the room in most settings. Later, I learned the value of investing in better EQ & added things like an external Rane 1/3" octave EQ to the mix for control.

It's evolved many, many times (over 100 rigs), but now, I finally have my dream live rig - my current & last live rig. Although I have others in my care just in case, I need these tools for most gigs:

Guitars: Three self-made OO/OOO sized Koa guitars - all 30+ years old. I need three for all the tunings I use. Currently building three new ones.

Dual Source Guitar Amplification Systems: K&K Mini Pickup/AKG 416 hyper internal mic dual-source combo in all three gigging guitars.

External mic: In quieter settings, I'll add a JW-modded AKG 460 condenser or Heil PR 35 dynamic mic to the basic combo at around 4-8" away at the 18th fret. DR Pro low profile stand. Very natural sound.

Preamp: Pendulum SPS-1 w/ PU-Mic blending & volume controls on the plug-in, end-jack module. The best live acoustic guitar preamp available, IMO. Fully parametric EQ prevents ALL feedback in ALL settings I've played to date. Greg's module is pure genius. 1 rack space.

FX: TC Electronics M-2000 Dual Engine Stereo FX Processor. I only use very light doses of FX in most cases, with few exceptions. This unit offers unbelievable control and over 500 presets. 1 rack space.

Power amp: Parasound 2125. Smooth, cool running. 2 rack spaces.

Speakers: Koa Daedalus W803's. Best I've ever heard & most efficient 8" three-ways ever. FANTASTIC IN EVERY VENUE OR GIG SETTING from intimate rooms on through to larger Auditorium or Hall venues. Proel stands & heavy covers. You Cannot Beat These for solo or small combo gigs w/ singers!

Portable Rack: Odyssey BR-418 4-space portable rack with built-in HD handle and wheels. The preamp, FX unit & power amp are easily transported & controlled in this rack.

Cables: Canare/Neutrik, Mogami, Planet Waves.

Vocal Mics: AKG 535 condenser (often). Heil PR 35 dynamic (often). K&H stands.

Loud/Band Gig Pickup: If it gets exceptionally loud at a gig, I slap in a Duncan Magmic SA-6 magnetic soundhole pickup & either use alone or blend w/ the K&K. I have an extra jack in one guitar w/ mini connectors @ the soundhole to facilitate easy connection when I put the SA-6 in. I turn off all instrument mic's. Nice full sound. No feedback. Not as natural sounding as my regular pickup system. Great for loud settings, tight stages & slide blues.

Accessories: Shubb Capos, self-made glass slides, National thumbpicks, large Fender medium flatpicks, medium D'Addario's or sometimes TM GHS's, acrylic nails. CMC music stand w/ Mighty Bright flexible stand lights.

Like many, cwake, I love the natural acoustic sound of playing a great guitar. But as you can see above, I'm always willing to scale back, or make a change, or to compromise if things change at a gig as they often do. I can get what I need from the K&K combo - even in a band, tight stage, or jam setting - because of the controls & options I have in place.

As an engineer, you also know that you must pay particular attention to how you route an acoustic guitar signal & even to where you stand in relation to others (like bass & drums) on a stage - especially if mic's are in play (never in the monitors).

Perhaps a UST pickup system IS what you need in your situation. But I think you could add an internal mic to it & have more options & more potential for more natural acoustic sound. IME, SBT's like the K&K do NOT feedback all that much --IF you invest in the right controls.

For example, here's how Laurence Juber does it with his DTAR Wavelength UST & custom Audix internal mic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Oe9WjEEzeI

All the best, cwakefield.

alohachris

[jonfields45]

A Zoom A3's modeling might do the trick for you. I found it fairly subtle and not worth the trouble even for my duo. But I tend to travel light and don't easily drag anything extra along. Jon

[Paul Haley]

The Zoom A3 does it for me

[erniecaster]

Hi,

you must be joking.

A soundengineer is able to kill the quack with compressor and parametric eq. It is not a problem at all.

Sorry.

cu

e.