When does the tone and dynamics come?

[Wrighty]

When you are learning a new piece, at what point do you find that you can, or do focus on the tone and phrasing?

Do you have to first get it under your fingers and into the memory and then start to polish it, or do you try to inject the right tone from an earlier time as you are still learning the left hand.

I have found that for most of my more complex pieces, that until I know the piece fairly well I can’t develop the right tone and dynamics, and that this only comes once I know the piece back to front and no longer have to think about finger placement.

I am just wandering if it’s possible and beneficial to inject this earlier into the learning process..

Thanks all.

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

When you are learning a new piece, at what point do you find that you can, or do focus on the tone and phrasing?

Do you have to first get it under your fingers and into the memory and then start to polish it, or do you try to inject the right tone from an earlier time as you are still learning the left hand.

I have found that for most of my more complex pieces, that until I know the piece fairly well I can’t develop the right tone and dynamics, and that this only comes once I know the piece back to front and no longer have to think about finger placement.

I am just wandering if it’s possible and beneficial to inject this earlier into the learning process..

Thanks all.

Hi Peter,
There's no reason that they can't happen concurrently.

In fact if the piece is not your composition you've got everything basically laid out for you, right?

Finger placement is affected by where they've been, and where they're going afterwards, and if the attack is softer or harder, etc, that will inform the proceedings.

It may be faster, in the long run, to learn it in a linear fashion.

The fluidity of the whole thing is another story, or course, but that's why we practice incessantly!

Regards,
Howard Emerson

[dkstott]

I don't compose & I only play fingerstyle.

My initial learning curve in any arrangement doesn't include tone, dynamics or timing. It's all about figuring out the best efficient left hand finger placement for me & transitioning from one bar / chord to the next.

Sometimes I have to change how I fingered a chord or note arrangement to make it easier to transition to the next one.

Once I have that down, I'll work on my timing against a metronome.

Then comes trying out variations in tone by moving my right hand closer to the bridge or neck... Changing the dynamics in volume in sections of the song, etc...

[SunnyDee]

I think it's really important to listen to what I'm playing always. The fingering I use will depend on the sound I am trying for, so I would do them at the same time.

[rick-slo]

Depends on the piece complexity and difficulty.

The more involved tune the more you have to first deal with technical issues and memorization issues. You are also probably working on small sections of the tune at any one time. I would not worry a ton about the details of dynamics and other methods of expression up front.

For phrasing you have to blend one measure of a piece into the next, one section of a piece into the next section. If you are still stumbling technically and memory wise then you really can't do a great job of it.

Probably the piece you have chosen to work on was because you liked it from hearing it played by someone else. You can refer to that for its use of expression and dynamics. Copy and perhaps elaborate when ready.

[SprintBob]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Depends on the piece complexity and difficulty.

The more involved tune the more you have to first deal with technical issues and memorization issues. You are also probably working on small sections of the tune at any one time. I would not worry a ton about the details of dynamics and other methods of expression up front.

For phrasing you have to blend one measure of a piece into the next, one section of a piece into the next section. If you are still stumbling technically and memory wise then you really can't do a great job of it.

Probably the piece you have chosen to work on was because you liked it from hearing it played by someone else. You can refer to that for its use of expression and dynamics. Copy and perhaps elaborate when ready.

+1, pretty much the approach I have evolved to after wasting a lot of time in the past trying to do too much too soon.

[reeve21]

I'm pretty new at fingerstyle, and almost everything I try to play (I use tab) is a challenge. So I'm in the "figure it out first" camp. My focus is on the mechanics until they are under control.

Lately, I have noticed that tone and dynamics seem to come "on their own" once I have the piece under my fingers at a reasonable tempo.

[Wrighty]

Thanks all - sounds like a few different approaches...

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

When you are learning a new piece, at what point do you find that you can, or do focus on the tone and phrasing?

Do you have to first get it under your fingers and into the memory and then start to polish it, or do you try to inject the right tone from an earlier time as you are still learning the left hand.

I have found that for most of my more complex pieces, that until I know the piece fairly well I can’t develop the right tone and dynamics, and that this only comes once I know the piece back to front and no longer have to think about finger placement.

I am just wandering if it’s possible and beneficial to inject this earlier into the learning process..

Thanks all.

Hello again Peter,

You are asking all the (w)right questions and that is good.

I'd say that tone is a matter of how you use your right hand (whatever style).
I really don't know if I still do it but some years ago when I only played solo I was approached by a guitarist from the audience who asked me how and why I moved the place where I hit the strings from close to the saddle to past the soundhole etc., and I had to think about it because it wasn't something I was aware that I did, but it was about pulling maximum tonal "expression" from my instrument. Looking at my more recent videos I don't seem to do it much now, but I think I do it through your second point ... phrasing.

You can indicate emotion in a bluesy fashion bending strings to emulate wailing and crying (which is fine) but I also realised recently that I hardly bend notes any more.

Having made me think about this (thanks) I suppose that for me at least - it is "nuance" my simplistic playing is primarily about accompanying my vocals but in my even more simplistic little solo parts, it is a subtle (?) messing with the time or accent of the melody to attempt, at least, to convey a little, understated emotion ...actually, I think that as I have grown older my conveying emotion has become less obvious, but is (I hope) still there.

I suppose it it a kind of "ragging-the-time" (ragtime) which means pulling or pushing the tempo fractionally to convey ... something, as opposed to playing it dead straight like you would an on beat or march type piece.

Try this one and/or some of my other, slower pieces on YT to see if you get my drift.

I hope this helps.
Hey, we don't live too far apart, so if you ever wanted to come over we could sit and talk about these things. I'm not that good a singer or player, but I'm old and old dogs learn tricks.

Best, ol'Andy

[TBman]

Its a definite "it depends" situation.

There's been a lot of times that I'll add "slide ins" from underneath, an extra hammer/pulloff combo while I'm learning something.

I guess a good rule of thumb is get the whole thing going musically at 75% of performance speed and see how it goes as you get closer to 100%.

Sometimes my "bright ideas" at 75% speed get sort of dim at full speed

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Hello again Peter,



You are asking all the (w)right questions and that is good.



I'd say that tone is a matter of how you use your right hand (whatever style).

I really don't know if I still do it but some years ago when I only played solo I was approached by a guitarist from the audience who asked me how and why I moved the place where I hit the strings from close to the saddle to past the soundhole etc., and I had to think about it because it wasn't something I was aware that I did, but it was about pulling maximum tonal "expression" from my instrument. Looking at my more recent videos I don't seem to do it much now, but I think I do it through your second point ... phrasing.



You can indicate emotion in a bluesy fashion bending strings to emulate wailing and crying (which is fine) but I also realised recently that I hardly bend notes any more.



Having made me think about this (thanks) I suppose that for me at least - it is "nuance" my simplistic playing is primarily about accompanying my vocals but in my even more simplistic little solo parts, it is a subtle (?) messing with the time or accent of the melody to attempt, at least, to convey a little, understated emotion ...actually, I think that as I have grown older my conveying emotion has become less obvious, but is (I hope) still there.



I suppose it it a kind of "ragging-the-time" (ragtime) which means pulling or pushing the tempo fractionally to convey ... something, as opposed to playing it dead straight like you would an on beat or march type piece.



Try this one and/or some of my other, slower pieces on YT to see if you get my drift.



I hope this helps.

Hey, we don't live too far apart, so if you ever wanted to come over we could sit and talk about these things. I'm not that good a singer or player, but I'm old and old dogs learn tricks.



Best, ol'Andy

Thanks, as always, Andy.

I think that you manage to get a lot of expression and feel into your playing from the videos that I have seen (I am watching Magnolia wind a lot as I am trying to learn that song)

The tone and articulation and phrasing of a piece is a so subtle in many ways, but is without a doubt what sets a player apart for me.

For example, in the flat picking world I love to listen to Ron Block from AKUS as his tone is just so beautiful. In fingerstyle I love Martin Tallstrom because of the space he leaves and the articulation of notes.

Like this;

https://youtu.be/XtJ252eukKs

In terms of articulation and tone I also love this;

https://youtu.be/t2DE3HqG9Q0

Would love to meet and do some playing with you - did you get the PM’s I sent you previously?

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Thanks, as always, Andy.

I think that you manage to get a lot of expression and feel into your playing from the videos that I have seen (I am watching Magnolia wind a lot as I am trying to learn that song)

The tone and articulation and phrasing of a piece is a so subtle in many ways, but is without a doubt what sets a player apart for me.

For example, in the flat picking world I love to listen to Ron Block from AKUS as his tone is just so beautiful. In fingerstyle I love Martin Tallstrom because of the space he leaves and the articulation of notes.

Like this;

https://youtu.be/XtJ252eukKs

In terms of articulation and tone I also love this;

https://youtu.be/t2DE3HqG9Q0

Would love to meet and do some playing with you - did you get the PM’s I sent you previously?

Two beautiful illustrations of splendid interpretations (I loved the little hint of Jimi Hendrix at 2.04 on the Tallstrom one).

Far ahead of me -I'm just an old rhythm guitarist who has some tricks to accompany myself.

I dined with and spent some time with Ron Block once - he has a very thoroughly thought out approach to learning and teaching (I wasn't in his banjo class) and his music in general which borrows much from zen philosophies. Very nice bloke as well.
His tone with AKUS is also "sweet" on banjo, but I think some credit should also go to whoever engineers and asters their recordings.

Keep at it! but don't copy - make the songs (and instrumentals) your own storiers and tell em in your own way with your own skills.

[vindibona1]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

When you are learning a new piece, at what point do you find that you can, or do focus on the tone and phrasing?

Do you have to first get it under your fingers and into the memory and then start to polish it, or do you try to inject the right tone from an earlier time as you are still learning the left hand...I am just wandering if it’s possible and beneficial to inject this earlier into the learning process...

It all depends on the experience and musical maturity of the player. To use myself as an example, my guitar playing is far less developed than my trumpet playing. On trumpet I can sometimes be called to play a concert SIGHT READ. We call them "show and blows". Tone, phrasing, style, everything is pretty much expected out of the chute at that level. Guitar is a different story. It's not so straight forward, so while I know what I want to do musically, my fingers need to know where to go first. Bringing the actual musicality up to the level that my brain wants to perform is limited to physical and mental abilities which are are still in development. If anyone follows "The Voice" closely you would know that the house musicians have to pretty much be ready to perform a piece at a professional level, often memorized, with very little preparation time. I'm told those dudes have had to learn over 6000 songs!

[Wrighty]

Originally Posted by vindibona1

It all depends on the experience and musical maturity of the player. To use myself as an example, my guitar playing is far less developed than my trumpet playing. On trumpet I can sometimes be called to play a concert SIGHT READ. We call them "show and blows". Tone, phrasing, style, everything is pretty much expected out of the chute at that level. Guitar is a different story. It's not so straight forward, so while I know what I want to do musically, my fingers need to know where to go first. Bringing the actual musicality up to the level that my brain wants to perform is limited to physical and mental abilities which are are still in development. If anyone follows "The Voice" closely you would know that the house musicians have to pretty much be ready to perform a piece at a professional level, often memorized, with very little preparation time. I'm told those dudes have had to learn over 6000 songs!

Totally get this - I think this is what I experience in the main.

My ear and my expectations are far in advance of my ability to deliver the tone I want with my fingers...

I have very high expectations in terms of dynamics and phrasing, tone from my right and left hand but just don’t yet have the ability to output that level of sound..

[Pitar]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

When you are learning a new piece, at what point do you find that you can, or do focus on the tone and phrasing?

Do you have to first get it under your fingers and into the memory and then start to polish it, or do you try to inject the right tone from an earlier time as you are still learning the left hand.

I have found that for most of my more complex pieces, that until I know the piece fairly well I can’t develop the right tone and dynamics, and that this only comes once I know the piece back to front and no longer have to think about finger placement.

I am just wandering if it’s possible and beneficial to inject this earlier into the learning process..

Thanks all.

New town, new roads leading to new locations for everything; all of it far from being mentally charted. Hmmm...sounds like there's a song in there somewhere.

I'm on the back slope of this insomuch as I can (usually) hear something and know the progression before the end of the song. Then when I get home I can usually have it sorted out in a key that works for me within another few minutes and, with the lyrics propped up on the monitor, be singing it.

That said, the usual follow-up for me that carries the real meaning for the foregoing is passion. That comes after getting the lyrics memorized, the score complementary and the mechanical synergy of vocals and playing subordinated to the passion that validates it all for me. If I can't inject passion in any piece or song it's because neither evokes it from me. I will not play something mechanically just to stash it in my repertoire.

Passion is the goal. Everything else is just play fun. Might sound silly but the folks who find success are the ones we sense passion in and I think it's because it's real so they're real.

Regarding a direct answer to the tone and phrasing, the nuances of that are in the passion that directs it into the hands. This assumes the hands can rise to the challenge.