Nut files too wide? Help!

[Marty1]

I've been progressively learning how to do my own set-up work on guitars, having recently learned how to do fretwork, and now looking to do nuts from blanks. I was looking at nut files on ebay and it seems like a lot of them are quite expensive (in the 100$ range). I ran into this ad and was wondering if it would work for me. However, I do have one concern. It says it is "good for all guages" the low E being .06! The high E being .02 (almost double the diameter of an .011 or .012 gauge)! It seems to me that if the slot is too wide there will be an issue with buzzing or muffling of sound. Is that a correct assumption?

This is the add in question: http://www.ebay.ca/itm/GeetarGizmos-...item1e851b5610

Am I wrong or is this a reasonable concern?

[AcornHouse]

Always be leery of "one size fits all" claims. Yes, these are too big for most guitar gauges. While the .020 might work for the B string (although I think it's too wide even for .016), you're just asking for buzz on the .010-.013 E strings, as you surmised. And the .060 is worthless.
I'm comfortable being .001-.002 off, if I have to, but that's as far as I go.

[charles Tauber]

Once upon a time, long, long ago - before the 1990's - people made instruments and used standard needle files to slot things like nuts. In those days, people worked by eye and by feel and weren't too concerned with exact measurements to the third decimal place. Rumour has it that in those ancient times, even with such crude tools very fine instruments were made. To this very day, in dimly-lit corners, in hushed whispers, if you listen very carefully, you can hear it said that there are people who still do it in the way of the Ancients.

Sure, gauged fret files, and the more recently available gauged saws, are nice to have if you do a lot of this sort of work. As with the Ancients, and their methods of yesteryear, it is still possible to do top quality work with a simple $10 set of needle files.

[Marty1]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Once upon a time, long, long ago - before the 1990's - people made instruments and used standard needle files to slot things like nuts. In those days, people worked by eye and by feel and weren't too concerned with exact measurements to the third decimal place. Rumour has it that in those ancient times, even with such crude tools very fine instruments were made. To this very day, in dimly-lit corners, in hushed whispers, if you listen very carefully, you can hear it said that there are people who still do it in the way of the Ancients.

Entertaining response, but I don't quite know what to make of it. Is your claim that the difference in gauge is negligible and will not make a difference, or that I should not bother buying specialized tools? If its the former, thank you for your input. If its the latter:

Certainly there are other options aside from specialized gauged tools, but the alternative is not simply "just get regular needle files and eyeball it". Certainly, the people who worked on guitars "before the 1990s" had some know-how and knew what tools to use. There is no way you can slot a high e with a regular hardware store file, at least none that I have encountered. I've seen people use very thin saws for this purpose. But again, its not just a jump in and hope for the best kinda situation--someone taught them how to do that OR a whole bunch of trial and error. That said, if you have some resource that explains how to do a nut with "crude" unspecialized tools feel free to send me a link and I'll definitely consider it.

[Outhouse]

The best option by far is taking a cheap set of feeler gauges, and dremel slots in them.

I made mine and the work absolutely great, and cheap and exact size every time.

[John Arnold]

If the files make a round bottom slot, a little extra width should not cause any buzzing or muting.
Before I got the gauged nut files from Stew Mac, I used needle files for the wound strings, and razor saw blades for the plain stings. I still use the razor saw blades....if for no other reason than to set the depth. The backside of the blades is a straightedge that I lay in the slot and on the second fret.

[bnjp]

I think if you're only doing one or two nuts, just about anything will work. If you're doing them all the time a proper set of files is worth the money. the first ones I got were the slotted feeler gauge saws. They worked for a few nuts but then got so dull I couldn't use them. I now also have the gauged set from Stewmac.

[Howard Klepper]

It looks to me like that Ebay seller is not selling files--he appears to be selling welding tip cleaner sets, and at twice their usual price.

[Lakedaisy]

I started doing my own work a few years ago. I bought a set of 6 these in the sizes I wanted. They are nice to have. There are several videos available (if you haven't already found them) concerning how to correctly cut the slots.

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools...ing_Files.html

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Marty1

Entertaining response, but I don't quite know what to make of it. Is your claim that the difference in gauge is negligible and will not make a difference, or that I should not bother buying specialized tools? If its the former, thank you for your input. If its the latter:

Certainly there are other options aside from specialized gauged tools, but the alternative is not simply "just get regular needle files and eyeball it". Certainly, the people who worked on guitars "before the 1990s" had some know-how and knew what tools to use. There is no way you can slot a high e with a regular hardware store file, at least none that I have encountered. I've seen people use very thin saws for this purpose. But again, its not just a jump in and hope for the best kinda situation--someone taught them how to do that OR a whole bunch of trial and error. That said, if you have some resource that explains how to do a nut with "crude" unspecialized tools feel free to send me a link and I'll definitely consider it.

My point was simply that gauged files and saws are a recent addition to a luthier's tool set. Prior to the addition of those tools, people used other tools and did an expert job at it. Part of the reason they did an expert job was that, well, they were experts. I did it that way for 20 years before getting gauged files and saws. I was initially taught to use a hardware-store-variety needle file for all 6 strings. It can be done, if you have the skills and know-how to do it. [Hint: it is a different "paradigm".]

Good tools - and appropriate tools - are often expensive. Sure, people have hacked away at it with welding tips, notched feeler gauges, strings in frames, etc. and managed to get acceptable results, all of which, essentially, use less expensive tools to duplicate more expensive tools that were developed for a specific method - a specific paradigm, if you will. Specifically, that you need slots that are of uniform width and within .001 or .002 of the diameter of the string.

A different paradigm is to use needle files. (Like John, I've also used a razor saw for many years, along with the needle files.) This method doesn't require uniform-width slots that are 1 or 2 thousandths larger than the diameter of the string. Instead, they are "V" shaped - with or without rounded bottoms, depending upon who's doing the work. This method doesn't even involve measuring the diameter of the strings. The method, arguably, requires some skill and know-how and has been used by luthiers for centuries.

One approach to "doing things" is to find a specialized tool that does exactly what you want done. Often, such specialized tools are relatively expensive and, often, require less manual skill to use to perform the desired task and remove some of the "guess-work". A different approach is to use a smaller, more universally-applicable set of tools, but learn to use them well. That, typically, takes more skill, but can often provide greater flexibility in what you can do with the tools and your skills. If you will, call it the "old-world" approach involving craftsmanship.

I'm not advocating that one approach is better than the other. The choice of which you prefer is up to you. My point was, simply, to be aware of that alternative, particularly if you are balking at the price of the specialized tools required to do it the "modern" way. You stated in your OP that you've "been progressively learning how to do my own set-up work on guitars." In my opinion, at least eventually, that is part of one's education, to be aware of alternative ways of doing things, and then choosing those that work best for you.

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by Marty1

Entertaining response, but I don't quite know what to make of it. Is your claim that the difference in gauge is negligible and will not make a difference, or that I should not bother buying specialized tools? If its the former, thank you for your input. If its the latter:

Certainly there are other options aside from specialized gauged tools, but the alternative is not simply "just get regular needle files and eyeball it". Certainly, the people who worked on guitars "before the 1990s" had some know-how and knew what tools to use. There is no way you can slot a high e with a regular hardware store file, at least none that I have encountered. I've seen people use very thin saws for this purpose. But again, its not just a jump in and hope for the best kinda situation--someone taught them how to do that OR a whole bunch of trial and error. That said, if you have some resource that explains how to do a nut with "crude" unspecialized tools feel free to send me a link and I'll definitely consider it.

Charles' operative words were "needle files".

[mirwa]

Originally Posted by Marty1

I've been progressively learning how to do my own set-up work on guitars,

Excellent to see, and your approach appears to be good, learning to do setups in small stages is a path to success.

Too many people try to do to much at once.

In regards to your question, with all the custom perfect tools out there from ""everywhere"" why compromise, just buy the deluxe tool.

Like most other old schoolers, I started with hacksaw blades and files, I then thought I was leader of the pack, when I got coping saws and fitted wound strings into them, now that was a luxury.

Today, we use specialized nut files, you cannot beat them.

Go the investment

Steve

[Marty1]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

I'm not advocating that one approach is better than the other. The choice of which you prefer is up to you. My point was, simply, to be aware of that alternative, particularly if you are balking at the price of the specialized tools required to do it the "modern" way. You stated in your OP that you've "been progressively learning how to do my own set-up work on guitars." In my opinion, at least eventually, that is part of one's education, to be aware of alternative ways of doing things, and then choosing those that work best for you.

Absolutely, but the impression I got from your initial post was that modern tools were just snake oil and that it was as easy as going to the hardware store to get needle files and just doing it. You came off as a bit of a cork sniffing traditionalist (hahaha). It was enjoyable to read though .

Obviously there's a certain knowledge involved. You were taught how to do it, and have 20 years of experience (which I respect). If I had someone to teach me or the time to throw away a bag of blanks then I'd be on board with the needle files. I was just wondering, given my financial situation at the immediate moment, if I could get away with learning a few things using this specific cheap tool, or if it would simply be a waste of time. That's the purpose of my OP/this thread.

[YamaYairi]

A luthier friend told me a cool trick for cutting nut slots. Fold a piece of sandpaper over the edge of a credit card.

[eGGz]

Cutting a nut is a tricky thing to learn.
Why complicate things further with awkward improvised tools.
These are $12 bucks each and you can pick and choose the exact sizes you need. Nut Files