Anyone gigged with a Lyric yet? Thoughts?

[cary]

I think we can all be happy that there are multiple decent options these days for amplifying our beloved acoustic instruments.

I like K&Ks. I really like my Lyric. Some folks run flat. Some cut the mids. Some need to add some mids back in.

In the end, it's amazing we have enough good options that we can even be having this discussion.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by cary

...In the end, it's amazing we have enough good options that we can even be having this discussion.

Hi cary...

Yes, it's a good day to need to amplify a guitar. I remember a time not that long ago it was a matter of which undersaddle piezo you would buy, and there were two choices of brands, each in two widths.

Not long ago, Doug Young pointed us to a link where half dozen (maybe more) pros played a song through their live rig and then explained how they were using them to get their sound.

They were all very different, and all sounded very good.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Aaron Smith

Full PA, whether my own or installed. Mine is Mackie Onyx 1640i mixer - TCE M-350 - dbx 231 GEQ - QSC K10 powered speakers, Mackie 1801 powered sub. The "radical" part is usually to pull out some undamped resonance at stage volume. With my K&K, the "mid" knob on the K&K Pure Pre is literally all the way down. With the lyric, there's around an 8db cut from 160-200Hz, and bass boosted below 100Hz.

So this only comes up when playing loud? I wonder if it's less about the pickup and more about interaction with the guitar. Basically feedback - not the howling kind, but the kind where your guitar is interacting with the sound, but at a level lower than audible feedback. Almost any SBT-like pickup will run into this issue. Maybe find a way to lower the stage volume?, work on speaker placement, etc. But it could be lots of things, maybe the guitar's too resonant for the volume you're playing at?

In any case, I'd think an 8db cut would do terrible things to your tone, and turning the mids to 0 must leave almost none of what I'd think of as the core acoustic tone. My goal, at least, is always to run flat, then be able to use tiny bits of basic 3-band EQ to adjust to taste. Partly I have it easy because I just won't play at volumes that feedback anymore. It just isn't worth it to my ears to to my audience's ears. But I recently saw Tommy Emmanuel doing his stage setup, and he plays at paint-peeling volumes. He told the sound guy "set everything flat" and he handled all the EQ on his 3 band bass-mid-treble AER amp. No idea what his own settings were like, but he didn't have the gear to do something like an 8db cut at a specific frequency.

It's hard to know what's going on over a text message, but if I had to make those kinds of cuts to get a usable sound, I'd start rethinking my whole setup, from guitar, to pickup, etc. Incidently, I also use the K10s, tho without the graphics EQ. I either use a Allen Heath Zed10 or my SPS-1 direct in (with a TC reverb). EQ's rarely anything other than flat with the K&Ks (I also use an internal mic, and I do roll off the low end on that). I haven't used the Lyric with that setup, but I suspect I'd do a slight smooth mid cut.

[throbert]

Originally Posted by PMcC

I suppose we all want something different, after trying a few pickups that made my D28 sound more like electric guitars, or mud, that needed radically eq.

I love the lyric, it sounds like my D28 going straight into a PA, flat EQ.

and it seems more responsive to dynamic soft fingerpicking or strumming than any pickup I've used. Not that I've tried them all, but I'm done.

I assume we buy a guitar because we like ITS sound. IMO,..Lyric doesn't SOUND LIKE ANYTHING.

except the guitar...works for me.

That's what I'm trying to say. I didn't get anything close to what my guitar sounded like with the Lyric. Just a lot of honky unusable midrnage.
Maybe I got a bad one or Baggs decided to change something in the circuitry
at some point. Perhaps the Baggs tech can chime in here and comment.

[PMcC]

Originally Posted by throbert

That's what I'm trying to say. I didn't get anything close to what my guitar sounded like with the Lyric. Just a lot of honky unusable midrnage.
Maybe I got a bad one or Baggs decided to change something in the circuitry
at some point. Perhaps the Baggs tech can chime in here and comment.

That doesn't sound right to me. Obviously there are times when mixing my D28 it will need subtle EQ tweaks,.. depending on how dense the mix is,..

But I was stunned at how I didn't need to suck out mud between 200-500 Hz,..roll-off @ 80Hz bring up some air @ 7K etc,...

Flat it sounds like my guitar.

Do you find when you record your axe,..it needs heavy EQ,..for most things?

I may be over simplifying things here. But, really I'm a less is more guy

[kydave]

Do you find when you record your axe,..it needs heavy EQ,..for most things?

Again - flat is good.

Mic choice and - maybe even more importantly - mic placement are where the changes occur to get your guitar to sound like your guitar.

I am assuming you don't mean recording an acoustic guitar via the pickup... Friends don't let friends do that.

[PMcC]

No, I was asking if his axe typically records mid heavy and needs lots of eq,..or sounds that way miked in general. yes mike and pre choice will change it all.

but in general....he should be hearing the Lyric reproduce his guitar.

[kydave]

Originally Posted by PMcC

No, I was asking if his axe typically records mid heavy and needs lots of eq,..or sounds that way miked in general. yes mike and pre choice will change it all. but in general....he should be hearing the Lyric reproduce his guitar.

I'm not sure about that, to be honest. I don't think that a microphone inside the guitar is going to necessarily reproduce the guitar like an external mic will.



(but I've been wrong before...)

[PMcC]

Originally Posted by kydave

I'm not sure about that, to be honest. I don't think that a microphone inside the guitar is going to necessarily reproduce the guitar like an external mic will.



(but I've been wrong before...)

yeah, whatever..I'm not sniffing corks here. Just stating the Lyric should reproduce the sound of his guitar. I didn't say it sounds as good as a miked gtr etc,...

Simply put,..All I said was it sounds like my D28 plugged in, without having to process and EQ it like crazy.

[Aaron Smith]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

So this only comes up when playing loud? I wonder if it's less about the pickup and more about interaction with the guitar. Basically feedback - not the howling kind, but the kind where your guitar is interacting with the sound, but at a level lower than audible feedback. Almost any SBT-like pickup will run into this issue. Maybe find a way to lower the stage volume?, work on speaker placement, etc. But it could be lots of things, maybe the guitar's too resonant for the volume you're playing at?

In any case, I'd think an 8db cut would do terrible things to your tone, and turning the mids to 0 must leave almost none of what I'd think of as the core acoustic tone. My goal, at least, is always to run flat, then be able to use tiny bits of basic 3-band EQ to adjust to taste. Partly I have it easy because I just won't play at volumes that feedback anymore. It just isn't worth it to my ears to to my audience's ears. But I recently saw Tommy Emmanuel doing his stage setup, and he plays at paint-peeling volumes. He told the sound guy "set everything flat" and he handled all the EQ on his 3 band bass-mid-treble AER amp. No idea what his own settings were like, but he didn't have the gear to do something like an 8db cut at a specific frequency.

It's hard to know what's going on over a text message, but if I had to make those kinds of cuts to get a usable sound, I'd start rethinking my whole setup, from guitar, to pickup, etc. Incidently, I also use the K10s, tho without the graphics EQ. I either use a Allen Heath Zed10 or my SPS-1 direct in (with a TC reverb). EQ's rarely anything other than flat with the K&Ks (I also use an internal mic, and I do roll off the low end on that). I haven't used the Lyric with that setup, but I suspect I'd do a slight smooth mid cut.

I think the main point is that context is important. As you mentioned before, the guitar itself plays a big role; at least as big as the pickup itself. The music format is also important. If I was playing guitar instrumentals as background music all night, I would probably prefer a flatter sound. However, I play in loud places, sing with most of my songs, and play pretty boisterous material. I like a bit of mid-scoop to make room for the vocals, and I play at bar volume so there's definitely some guitar/pickup/speaker interaction that accentuates problem frequencies. Settings that sound great in my basement sound lousy on stage, and vice-versa.

[PMcC]

I'm doing noisy wine bars, coffee houses,..and unplugged type rock/pop with bass and drums.

Lately I was using the ibeam,...nothing but headaches with roaring feedback and muddy sound. then the rare earth,..which is fine for pop in and go. But my guitar sounded more like a 335,..and I hated the magnetic pull.
Nuances were lost,..fingerpicking was difficult,..etc..

As I stated I think in my first post.

Lyric sounds and feels like playing my D28 through a PA. I'm simple, that's all I need.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Aaron Smith

I think the main point is that context is important. As you mentioned before, the guitar itself plays a big role; at least as big as the pickup itself. The music format is also important. If I was playing guitar instrumentals as background music all night, I would probably prefer a flatter sound. However, I play in loud places, sing with most of my songs, and play pretty boisterous material. I like a bit of mid-scoop to make room for the vocals, and I play at bar volume so there's definitely some guitar/pickup/speaker interaction that accentuates problem frequencies. Settings that sound great in my basement sound lousy on stage, and vice-versa.

For sure. That's why it's so hard to talk about this stuff without hearing it. You may simply like or need a very different sound than I do. I like to have the guitar sound about the way it sounds to me acoustically - maybe a bit bigger and fuller. But in that case, I'd hope anyone reading understands that your EQ needs are about changing the guitar sound for the things you mention - cutting thru a loud bar, etc, and not about getting the pickup to sound like the natural tone of your guitar. It sounds like you're trying to make it sound totally different than the natural guitar sound for your application (mids scooped out, etc).

EDIT: Thinking about this, I think I'd go back to my original recommendation - it's worth rethinking your setup, especially the pickup. I could be misunderstanding, but it sounds like you've been trying to use an SBT, the K&K, whose best feature is its warm, resonant midrange, and then the Lyric, which is a mic, again, designed to pick up the warmth and resonance of a guitar, and then EQing all of that out of the sound because of the environment you play in. Rather than fight the pickup, you *might* find that a UST works better all around, gets rid of the resonances, feedback, cuts thru, etc. When I used to occasionally play loud gigs, I used a dual source setup - K&K +Mag. That way when I was in a situation where the K&K was problematic, I'd just use the mag, which had far fewer issues. In a loud situation, no one could hear the difference in sound anyway. There's no single right pickup - like you say, it's all about context. Picking a different tool for your context might make life a lot easier.

[Aaron Smith]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

For sure. That's why it's so hard to talk about this stuff without hearing it. You may simply like or need a very different sound than I do. I like to have the guitar sound about the way it sounds to me acoustically - maybe a bit bigger and fuller. But in that case, I'd hope anyone reading understands that your EQ needs are about changing the guitar sound for the things you mention - cutting thru a loud bar, etc, and not about getting the pickup to sound like the natural tone of your guitar. It sounds like you're trying to make it sound totally different than the natural guitar sound for your application (mids scooped out, etc).

EDIT: Thinking about this, I think I'd go back to my original recommendation - it's worth rethinking your setup, especially the pickup. I could be misunderstanding, but it sounds like you've been trying to use an SBT, the K&K, whose best feature is its warm, resonant midrange, and then the Lyric, which is a mic, again, designed to pick up the warmth and resonance of a guitar, and then EQing all of that out of the sound because of the environment you play in. Rather than fight the pickup, you *might* find that a UST works better all around, gets rid of the resonances, feedback, cuts thru, etc. When I used to occasionally play loud gigs, I used a dual source setup - K&K +Mag. That way when I was in a situation where the K&K was problematic, I'd just use the mag, which had far fewer issues. In a loud situation, no one could hear the difference in sound anyway. There's no single right pickup - like you say, it's all about context. Picking a different tool for your context might make life a lot easier.

Great comments Doug, and I appreciate you taking the time to weigh in. I spent at least 10 years gigging my Taylor 714ce with the factory Fishman Matrix UST; truth is, I thought it sounded pretty good at the time and I often had people, including other musicians, comment on my great guitar tone. I've also used a magnetic, and I didn't like the sound of that at all.

My goal was never really to get a "just like acoustic" tone. I just want a great stage tone- and my ears are the final judge. The problem with the UST, and to a lesser extent the K&K, is the hard, brittle attack. I find that sound to be very fatiguing after a while. The Lyric is a great solution in that regard; it sounds like a microphone, and the transient response is much more natural to my ear. If I have to do some Extreme Knob Twiddling to get the balance the way I like it, well... it's easy to do. Now that I've got it dialed in, it's very reproducible. Certainly a lot easier than running through a bunch of other gear.

[Doubleneck]

Originally Posted by cary

2Matchless, I wrote an extensive post over on the UMGF about this, but long-story short -- my Lyric required two bands of parametric EQ in the midrange to really shine, but BOY DOES IT SHINE.

I ended up purchasing a Baggs Venue to make this easier, because the BASS/MID/TREBLE controls on my amp didn't give enough control of the Mids.

Here's a photo of my current settings. To me, they sound phenomenal. All of my other guitars have K&Ks, and I still dig that system, but someday I will be moving each of them to the Lyric. It just sounds amazing.

Here are my settings on the Dtar Equinox. Very different guitars (mine is a thin body double not a D18 Dred) I need to enhance low bass but the main mid cut is almost identical. The frequency of the mid cut is around the 630 K HZ mark, you probably can't quite read. Yours seems to be at 600 as well. For me this mid cut is absolutely necessary, sounds not so great without it, night and day. So I guess I am not in agreement with you run it flat guys, but each guitar is different.

[jseth]

Once again, Doug Young has voiced a point that I ALWAYS think about when I read these posts about having difficulty dialing in a good sound with "X" brand pickup...

It has always seemed quite elementary to me that a GOOD system and pick-up just doesn't need a lot of tweaking (eq-wise) to sound good... if I have to start jacking controls all over the place, all that tells me is that the system/pick-up just isn't all that good...

I'm not talking about a specific room or set-up that requires tailoring for high volume levels here... more like, if you have a good amplifier/receiver and a good set of speakers that pair well together, you don't need to adjust hardly anything to get a nice sound on your home audio system. I feel the same way about live performance gear, in a general way. I have worked enough different rooms/venues to know that some of them were NEVER intended to have any sort of loud music played live... like a High School gymnasium or some such... same goes for a small room where the players are attempting to play at a much higher volume than is needed (not dissing this; I was a kid once, too!).

When I first started using my K&K-equipped Goodall through a Bose PA, I found that it just didn't "do it" for me... even using the Bose T1, I still had to work too hard for a decent tone... all this told me was that, somehow, my gear and the pick-up weren't "playing well" together... when I began using a K&K XLR PURE pre-amp, I finally got a very nice tone from the guitar, using a flat setting on the amp/PA and VERY little tweaking on the pre-amp's tone controls.

I'm not saying that ANY of the gear one may be using is BAD... I'm just saying that matching everything up has been key for me to get a good sound without going through a lot of machinations with various eq's to get a good sound...