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#31
02-19-2013, 12:48 AM
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Hi Joe, good to hear from you.
We may be getting a wee bit ahead of ourselves here. There are questions which I asked earlier, which have not yet been cleared up. It's quite late here, so I'll re-read the thread in the morning, to refresh my memory. I've got a favor to ask; could you please edit the size of your mixer image, to a slightly smaller size? I'm having a hard time reading the text below the image, because that page is too wide. One size smaller should do. One question; How did the service go yesterday? (Sunday) Did you have any feedback issues, now that you've reduced the number of mics? Two more points; 1. Having seen only two pics of your set-up, I'm not sure I know exactly where all your speakers are, or exactly how they're deployed. I see the pair behind the alter, one tripod stands, and one facing the choir seats, at what appears to be an angle. 2. You haven't told me exactly which mic models you're using. I need specific model numbers or names, to identify the pick-up patterns. Now, I'm going to ask you a BIG favor; is there any way you can post a drawing of the floor-plan of your church. It doesn't have to be completely accurate, but I need to know EXACTLY where ALL of the speakers are, and how they're aimed,,,, and,,, I need to know where each and every mic is located, including the altar, and the pulpit. Leave nothing out, and if you can get me some pics taken from behind the pulpit, and the altar, that would be great. I need to know if there are mics located there, and how they're aimed. One question which I asked earlier; are you getting feedback when the minister is at the altar, or the pulpit? I'll leave it there for now. I'll come back to ask how your speakers are linked, but let's put that aside for now. 
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#33
02-19-2013, 10:13 AM
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#34
02-19-2013, 10:31 AM
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G'morning Joe,
I've just re-read the entire thread, and there are a few points I'd like to re-discuss. First, I missed your post (#13), regarding the non-working link I gave you for the single-mic piano technique. It works fine here. Could you re-try, and give it a few seconds to load. It's a three-page link, and the information you need is at the bottom of page 2. If the link doesn't work by clicking on it, just copy-and-paste it to a new browser. Here's a copy of the image of a single mic (Sennheiser MD-421) being used under the lid of the piano. You might have to copy-and-paste this one too. http://www.prosoundweb.com/images/up...oMicImage2.jpg and here's the original link again, but starting at page 2 http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/w...live_realm/P2/ PS, when you're opening your new browser, you might already see http:// If that's the case, delete that before copying and pasting the link I just gave you. Last edited by Bobby1note; 02-19-2013 at 01:12 PM.
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#35
02-19-2013, 12:34 PM
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While I'm thinking of it, I thought I'd insert something to think about. This goes to "mixing", and the non-amplified sound-level of the original source. (voices/ instruments).
Basically, there are three perspectives involved; 1. setting the output levels at the mixer (visual approach/ using the meters) 2. using your ears,,, (what it sounds like, at that mix position), and, 3. what the non-amplified sources sound like at the audience position. A P/A is all about sound reinforcement..... Volumes should be set in such a manner, as to "support" the non-amplified source, at the audience's listening position. It's very easy for volume levels to exceed what is necessary for accomplishing your goals. The P/A level, rather than the original source level, becomes the dominant factor, and in a situation where our hands are somewhat tied by the reluctance of the directors to move the speakers, we'll have to be especially careful about pumping unnecessary levels through the P/A, especially where loudspeaker patterns are directed toward microphones. I suspect we're going to have to take a much closer look at each one of the loudspeakers, and their individual output levels;,,,, the speaker(s) pointed at the choir(choir monitor),,,,, and those that are aimed toward the audience. I presume that each one of those loudspeakers has an output-level knob on the rear-panel. Adjusting the speaker output levels, will be much better than reducing the speaker-levels at the mixer, and we won't get into trouble with the mixers' noise-floor. If the choir has no trouble hearing themselves when not running through the P/A,,,, then you could possibly eliminate that speaker altogether. Later, we'll talk specifically about EQ'ing those speakers. We'll focus on "intelligibility", and the reduction or elimination of unnecessary low-frequencies. We'll also look at the highs, and reducing those to the point where you get just enough "sparkle",,, but no more. Question;,,,, Are there any other instruments involved? (other than the piano) Last edited by Bobby1note; 02-19-2013 at 12:48 PM.
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#36
02-19-2013, 03:58 PM
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Let me draw up a simple diagram with the church layout and the speaker positions, this might help. Give me a little bit to type it all up, again, really appreciate your time and efforts. PS...Your 3 points has me thinking a bit more, definitely agree with all of them. Man am I learning a lot!  ... Joe
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#37
02-19-2013, 04:14 PM
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Thanks, Bobby, for being such a help to Joe!
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cotten
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#38
02-19-2013, 04:17 PM
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Joe,
If you're still on-line,,, exactly how many speakers are there in all? And, where is each one aimed? I believe I see three in your pic,,, the 2 Mackies, and possibly a third facing the choir?
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#39
02-19-2013, 04:30 PM
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When we're doing band practices in the music-room, we have to match our PA levels to that acoustic kit of course. With an electronic kit, I'd have much more leeway in tone-shaping and over-all output. Are you using a monitor with that kit? Roland has a really great sounding floor-monitor with 2 small satellites. I don't recall the specific model, but I seem to recall they had two versions. I heard the larger monitor/satellite rig, and it was suuuperb.
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#40
02-19-2013, 04:39 PM
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There are two different systems/mixes in the church. Choir Mix The first is just the choir inputs which output through the two Mackie SRM450's that are on speaker stands on each side of the crucifix. The inputs into this mix are: 1. One Audix condenser (as shown in the picture of the choir seating) 2. One Shure SM58 which is on a boom mic stand inside the baby grand piano lid aimed directly at the middle C hammer about 6-10 inches away 3. Guitar/Ukulele - whichever I feel like playing that day Altar Mix The second mixes the 3 gooseneck mics at the altar and outputs only through the satellite speakers mounted on the walls (you can see the white satellite speaker mounted on the ceiling just above the choir seats in the picture showing the altar - Note: This particular satellite speaker is currently disconnected and doesn't not provide any output.). The inputs into this mix are (as can be seen in the altar picture): 1. Lectorer's podium gooseneck mic (you can see half of the podium on the left of the picture) 2. Altar gooseneck mic (you can see the cable under the altar) 3. Priest's gooseneck mic (this is on the stand right in front of the biggest chair under the crucifix) I'll try to draw up the diagram, however, the altar mix only outputs through the satellite speakers which are mounted on each post from the front to the back of the church. The church is a perfect rectangle facing the altar. I'll try to respond to each of your questions in the previous post. Thanks again so much Bobby, can't say it enough. ... Joe
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#41
02-19-2013, 05:07 PM
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Joe,
We might not need a diagram,,,, Roughly what size is that church? How many people in the congregation (roughly) Again, I need the specific model numbers of ALL those mics, including those at the altar and lecturn. "Audix condenser" is not enough,,,, I need the model name. Here's Audix's condenser-mic page. Hopefully, some of these will be familiar. I'm thinking you have either the CX112B, or the CX212B As for piano, you don't want that mic aimed directly at the hammer at middle-c. What you're looking for, is "reflected sound" off the lid of the piano. the mic has to be aimed at the lid itself,,, not the strings or hammer. You want that mic placed roughly 1/8th of an inch from the lid, and the mic-body should be horizontal,,,,, parallel to the floor. Last edited by Bobby1note; 02-19-2013 at 05:37 PM.
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#42
02-19-2013, 06:04 PM
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Bobby,
We might not need a diagram,,,, Roughly what size is that church? How many people in the congregation (roughly) Wow, this is a tough one because I've never actually counted the pews. If I had to guess, i would say that there's about 30-40 rows, two sections (left & right of the aisle) and each pew can hold 15 adults, approximately? So that would be a total of 900 on the low estimate and 1500 on the high side? Again, I need the specific model numbers of ALL those mics, including those at the altar and lecturn. "Audix condenser" is not enough,,,, I need the model name. Here's Audix's condenser-mic page. Hopefully, some of these will be familiar. f9 | Condenser Instrument | Microphone I want to say that this is the specific model but I'm not 100% sure because the mics are old. Someone even added painter's tape around the mic so that it would hold in it's clip better. I can take a picture of it, however, I think the model no. might be covered by the tape. Oh well, I guess it's time to clean it all up! As for piano, you don't want that mic aimed directly at the hammer at middle-c. What you're looking for, is "reflected sound" off the lid of the piano. the mic has to be aimed at the lid itself,,, not the strings or hammer. You want that mic placed roughly 1/8th of an inch from the lid, and the mic-body should be horizontal,,,,, parallel to the floor. I'll definitely give this a try with my Shure SM58. I'm reading through the link you provided, thanks so much for that! I got my initial mic position from this video: How To Record Piano: Basic Mic Techniques ...but modified the first technicque (XY Stereo) to XY Mono. I'll let you know how this goes, I'm just hoping that the SM58 can pick up a strong enough signal when faced to the lid instead of at the hammer. Side Note: There is the 2nd audix condenser mic that is no longer being used for the choir that I could use, so this is an option if I don't get enough out of the SM58.Thanks again! ... Joe
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#43
02-19-2013, 07:24 PM
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Thanks for that info Joe,
Well, if that church holds 900 people, I'd be VERY surprised (judging by the few pics I've seen). Even with people sitting shoulder-to-shoulder, you'd need pews that are 30 feet long for 15 people. Two sections of pews would be 60 feet. Add the width of the aisles, and your church would have to be close to 80 feet wide. I don't get that impression from the pics, but I might be wrong. If the church is that large, then "Houston,,,,we have a problem" Lets go back to the ministers mics for a second; You say that it's independent system from the Mackie system? You have no control over that system; correct? That system is "on" all the time, even when the choir is singing,,, correct? What I'm trying to determine here is, whether the Mackie's placement and output, is causing the ministers mics to feed back, and that in turn is being fed through his small speakers, and being picked up in YOUR mics,,,,then to the Mackies, creating a feedback loop. I'll dig around regarding your Audix condenser mic. Don't bother cleaning it up. I'll find some info somewhere, I'm sure. As long as it looks like your pic, that should be enough to narrow it down. Now, as for the piano mic'ing thing,,,, there are "studio techniques", and there are "Live sound" techniques. What works well in one environment, may not work well with another. Our main issues here are "getting the best sounding piano possible,,,, while simultaneously fighting feedback. Try that "Lid" technique, and see how it sounds. We can switch things around later if need be. Now, from what I can see in your pics, the floor at the altar area, is elevated, and I believe there are posts or pillars at the front corners, is that correct? Is there any chance the Mackies could be fastened to the front of those pillars??? Another alternative would be to lay the Mackies on the front edge of the floor, inside the pillars, in "floor monitor" position. (facing upward toward the ceiling), so as to not create "sight-line" issues for the congregation. Would that be a viable option?
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#44
02-19-2013, 07:59 PM
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Well, if that church holds 900 people, I'd be VERY surprised (judging by the few pics I've seen). Even with people sitting shoulder-to-shoulder, you'd need pews that are 30 feet long for 15 people. Two sections of pews would be 60 feet. Add the width of the aisles, and your church would have to be close to 80 feet wide. I don't get that impression from the pics, but I might be wrong.
If the church is that large, then "Houston,,,,we have a problem" I knew this was a tough one. Thinking about the width of the church, I think it's safe to say it's between 40-60 ft. I'll bring a tape measure with me this Sunday and get a better measurement as well as count the pews. Lets go back to the ministers mics for a second; You say that it's independent system from the Mackie system? You have no control over that system; correct? That system is "on" all the time, even when the choir is singing,,, correct? What I'm trying to determine here is, whether the Mackie's placement and output, is causing the ministers mics to feed back, and that in turn is being fed through his small speakers, and being picked up in YOUR mics,,,,then to the Mackies, creating a feedback loop. You're correct, always on, no control of this during the service. As far as the feedback is concerned, ever since I killed that white satellite speaker above the choir seats, the feedback occurring while the priest or reader is speaking has been resolved. What I don't know is whether the feedback from the choir condenser is now caused by what you're eluding to here? What I can do this Sunday is try to increase the gain of the condenser and test if the feedback threshold increases when the altar mix is off. I'll do this and let you know the results. Now, as for the piano mic'ing thing,,,, there are "studio techniques", and there are "Live sound" techniques. What works well in one environment, may not work well with another. Our main issues here are "getting the best sounding piano possible,,,, while simultaneously fighting feedback. Try that "Lid" technique, and see how it sounds. We can switch things around later if need be. After reading that article, I'm going to try the "lid" technique with the SM58 as well as the "high hole" technique with the second audix condenser (but not at the same time). From this, I can see which works better for sound and feedback as you mentioned. Now, from what I can see in your pics, the floor at the altar area, is elevated, and I believe there are posts or pillars at the front corners, is that correct? Is there any chance the Mackies could be fastened to the front of those pillars??? Another alternative would be to lay the Mackies on the front edge of the floor, inside the pillars, in "floor monitor" position. (facing upward toward the ceiling), so as to not create "sight-line" issues for the congregation. Would that be a viable option? To be honest, I think getting them to put the speakers up on the ledge would be much easier than having them on the floor. Reason being, they use the floor space for different things through out the year and I know they would complain about it. You can also see in the altar photo that there's a ledge right above the white satellite speaker (just below the artwork). This ledge runs the entire length of the church, and I proposed to have the Mackie's placed right on the ledge at the first post (the big post you see next to the clavinova in the choir picture). If we can put it right above that post on the ledge, then it would be forward of all altar mics as well as the choir. I'm sure this would help. Again, the only challenge here is the cabling to get it up that high, I would pretty much be single-handedly responsible for procuring the cabling.  Let me bring it up again with them and mention that I've consulted with "experts in the state" (that always has a lot of weight!) and that they reinforced my initial recommendation. I'll pray about it as well.Oh, just a note, because of the time difference here, the service I play for is Sunday at 10:30AM - which converts to Saturday 4:00PM PST. Not sure where you're located but hope this helps in understand if there's a delay in my replies. Also, you had one question which I answered in post #11: One question; How did the service go yesterday? (Sunday) Did you have any feedback issues, now that you've reduced the number of mics? Because of the time difference, I actually posted that right after last week's service. The pictures I posted were snaped right before and after the service so that's what I intend to do this weekend again. However, this time, I'm going to keep the mic at the same position but angle it at the middle row as Larry suggested instead of the chin of the last row members. The thought here is that I don't have risers and the entire choir is on the same level - so this should provide a more balanced sound from the choir right? Can't say it enough, thank you for your time and efforts! ... Joe Last edited by joeguam; 02-19-2013 at 08:05 PM.
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#45
02-19-2013, 09:26 PM
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Well, if that church holds 900 people, I'd be VERY surprised (judging by the few pics I've seen). Even with people sitting shoulder-to-shoulder, you'd need pews that are 30 feet long for 15 people. Two sections of pews would be 60 feet. Add the width of the aisles, and your church would have to be close to 80 feet wide. I don't get that impression from the pics, but I might be wrong.
If the church is that large, then "Houston,,,,we have a problem" [/I]I knew this was a tough one. Thinking about the width of the church, I think it's safe to say it's between 40-60 ft. I'll bring a tape measure with me this Sunday and get a better measurement as well as count the pews. Count how many are sitting in those pews too. You probably have a center-aisle, and narrower aisles on the outside edge of those pews, along the wall. I figure each person needs about 2 feet of seating space, so, if three aisles 14 feet wide total (6 centre aisle/ 4 foot outside aisles), and the church is 50 feet wide, that would mean 8 people per pew. Two banks of pews(left side/ right side), 15 rows of pews long, would mean 240 people. Maybe I'm wishful-thinking on that one.  Lets go back to the ministers mics for a second; You say that it's independent system from the Mackie system? You have no control over that system; correct? That system is "on" all the time, even when the choir is singing,,, correct? What I'm trying to determine here is, whether the Mackie's placement and output, is causing the ministers mics to feed back, and that in turn is being fed through his small speakers, and being picked up in YOUR mics,,,,then to the Mackies, creating a feedback loop. You're correct, always on, no control of this during the service. As far as the feedback is concerned, ever since I killed that white satellite speaker above the choir seats, the feedback occurring while the priest or reader is speaking has been resolved. What I don't know is whether the feedback from the choir condenser is now caused by what you're eluding to here? What I can do this Sunday is try to increase the gain of the condenser and test if the feedback threshold increases when the altar mix is off. I'll do this and let you know the results. OK, this confirms the feedback loop. When you "killed" the small satellite over the choir, that eliminated the preacher feeding back, BUT when the choir's singing, the Mackies are aimed at the preachers' mics, re-igniting that loop. Yes, you're getting directly blasted by the Mackies at the choir position, but so are those preachers' mics. It all contributes to the rooms overall sound-pressure-level.(SPL) Would it be at all possible to have those preacher-mics turned off when the music starts? And, what about muting the mixer when the preacher is speaking?. Now, as for the piano mic'ing thing,,,, there are "studio techniques", and there are "Live sound" techniques. What works well in one environment, may not work well with another. Our main issues here are "getting the best sounding piano possible,,,, while simultaneously fighting feedback. Try that "Lid" technique, and see how it sounds. We can switch things around later if need be. After reading that article, I'm going to try the "lid" technique with the SM58 as well as the "high hole" technique with the second audix condenser (but not at the same time). From this, I can see which works better for sound and feedback as you mentioned. Joe, what's important here, is not only the "sound" of the piano,,, but more importantly "feed-back rejection". The reason I want you to try the "Lid" technique, is because I want to put the mics in such a position, that the Mackies feed into the "NULL" of that mic's pick-up pattern. Hopefully, the feedback issue at that mic will disappear, if it's properly positioned and angled. Now, from what I can see in your pics, the floor at the altar area, is elevated, and I believe there are posts or pillars at the front corners, is that correct? Is there any chance the Mackies could be fastened to the front of those pillars??? Another alternative would be to lay the Mackies on the front edge of the floor, inside the pillars, in "floor monitor" position. (facing upward toward the ceiling), so as to not create "sight-line" issues for the congregation. Would that be a viable option? To be honest, I think getting them to put the speakers up on the ledge would be much easier than having them on the floor. Reason being, they use the floor space for different things through out the year and I know they would complain about it. You can also see in the altar photo that there's a ledge right above the white satellite speaker (just below the artwork). This ledge runs the entire length of the church, and I proposed to have the Mackie's placed right on the ledge at the first post (the big post you see next to the clavinova in the choir picture). If we can put it right above that post on the ledge, then it would be forward of all altar mics as well as the choir. I'm sure this would help. Again, the only challenge here is the cabling to get it up that high, I would pretty much be single-handedly responsible for procuring the cabling. Let me bring it up again with them and mention that I've consulted with "experts in the state" (that always has a lot of weight!) and that they reinforced my initial recommendation. I'll pray about it as well.Cabling should now be the least of your issues, especially considering that you wouldn't need more stands or mics. That shelf position would be perfect, as long as the shelf can properly support the load, and that the speakers are mechanically fastened to the walls. You want to be 101% sure than nobody can accidentally pull those speakers down from the shelves, or someone could get seriously injured (or worse). The speakers could then fire toward the opposite rear corners of the room, for best coverage. This would allow the high frequencies to be projected to the people seated under those over-hangs. If the speakers were aimed straight back, that vertical ledge would block the sound of the high frequencies, for those who are seated under that over-hang. With the ledge-position, few, if any compromises in mic'ing would have to be made. Your main concern would then be "monitoring" for the choir. I still need to know if you have three Mackies,,,,, I thought I was looking at the side of one, in the alter-pic. (facing the choir) Oh, just a note, because of the time difference here, the service I play for is Sunday at 10:30AM - which converts to Saturday 4:00PM PST. Not sure where you're located but hope this helps in understand if there's a delay in my replies. AHA!!!! That explains why I saw your "Sunday" post, on what was Saturday night for me(or, was that Monday morning???? ). I'm on the other side of the planet, in a lil' place called Lachute, in the province of Quebec, in eastern Canada. I originally thought that you went to a Saturday service.Also, you had one question which I answered in post #11: One question; How did the service go yesterday? (Sunday) Did you have any feedback issues, now that you've reduced the number of mics? Because of the time difference, I actually posted that right after last week's service. The pictures I posted were snaped right before and after the service so that's what I intend to do this weekend again. However, this time, I'm going to keep the mic at the same position but angle it at the middle row as Larry suggested instead of the chin of the last row members. The thought here is that I don't have risers and the entire choir is on the same level - so this should provide a more balanced sound from the choir right? Try to snap a few pics of the pews, while they're occupied. Also, try to get a pic from the main door, looking toward the altar. A close-up of the mics at the altar and pulpit, would also be VERY nice. Get the model numbers while you're at it. Can't say it enough, thank you for your time and efforts! My pleasure Joe. I'm really enjoying the challenge. If we can't move the Mackies, all is not lost,,,,,,,yet! We can proceed with the assumption that the Mackies must stay put for now. By optimizing the mic angles in such a way that the Mackies feed into the "nulls" of the mics, rather than into the pick-up patterns,,,, and EQ unnecessary hi and low frequency content, we can take best advantage of the cards we're dealt. One way or the other,,,, we'll get there Joe.  ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Last edited by Bobby1note; 02-20-2013 at 05:54 PM.
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