Help me understand wattage

[bho]

Hello,

I am told that some amps with low wattage, such as the AER 60/3, are more powerful than amps with higher wattage, such as the Schertler Jam 200. Can someone explain to me why a 60 watt amp would be more powerful than a 200 watt amp?

Thanks.

[Cuki79]

They are not more powerfull. They are louder.

Your ear does not hear the same all frequencies. For example, we are very sensitive to mid and almost deaf to low frequency sounds. This is the reason why a Blackstar Fly electric guitar amp can sound really loud althought is is so small. There are only mids.

AER 60/3 is a bit mid focused and quite directional. So you will hear it as being as loud or louder the Schertler JAM 200.

The Schertler JAM 200 is a much fuller sounding amp. There is a lots of bass (probably a bit more than the guitar acoustic sound). Bass needs a lots of power to be heard. If you look at bi-amplified speaker, you'll see that most of the power will be dedicated to the woofer and much less to the tweeter. So The Schertler will dedicated a huge amount of energy (could be half) just to have the woof/boom sound you will never get with an AER. It's not 100% musical, but you clearly feel it.

If you want to compare loudness, you should look at Sound Pressure level (SPL) at 1 meter. It is defined at 1 kHz where the ear is very sensitive. You will be surprised.

Look for Fletcher–Munson curves explanation for further details

Let's take the example of the Loudbox performer user guide

There is 130W overall
80W for the woofer (80Hz to 600 Hz)
40W for the midrange (600 Hz to 4kHz)
10W for the tweeter (4KHz to 20 kHz)
and a SPL@1m of 117dB SPL

Most of what you perceive as loud comes from the midrange (40W). More than half of the power (80W) is dedicated to make the sound full and give body to the tone (woofer). 10W are dedicated to clarity and airiness (tweeter).

PS: I have two JAM 150 and used to have a compact 60 for one year. I like bass so I kept the JAM. But if you don't need the bass, AER is a great amp.

My 2 cents
Cuki

[roylor4]

In addition to what Cuki has stated (far more informed than I am) volume achieved is not rated in watts but in db's. It is also about power consumption, rather than output.

If you put a 15 watt tube amp on stage with most 50 or 60 watt SS amp and turned them both 1/2 way up you wouldn't even be able to hear the SS amp due to the output difference of a tube amp.

Another huge factor is speaker sensitivity. If you take a marginally sensitive speaker from an amp and replace it with a much more efficient one you can drastically boost both volume and clarity.

[rokdog49]

You're best bet is to ignore wattage ratings and audition as many amps as you can. I own a Vox Pathfinder R solid state 15 watt amp that is louder than a lot of so-called sixty watt amps.

[varmonter]

I have heard that wattage can produce a more
Defined and clearer sound at a lower volume level.
So the more watts you have the better your
Amp would sound at a lower volume. As I am not
Playing rock and roll or trying to compete with
A drum kit and stratocaster. This is more of
A concern for me to have a better sound at low
Volume.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by bho

Hello,

I am told that some amps with low wattage, such as the AER 60/3, are more powerful than amps with higher wattage, such as the Schertler Jam 200. Can someone explain to me why a 60 watt amp would be more powerful than a 200 watt amp?

Thanks.

Hi bho

Watts are not the only issue when it comes to guitar amps, PA systems (or home stereos for that matter). And sometimes one company's watts are not always equal to the other company's watts…or at least the way they present those 'watts'.

The output of an amp, impedance of an amp, impedance of the speaker, and the efficiency of the speaker(s) and cabinet design all come into play.

Many companies pad their figures by claiming an amp is x amount of watts at 2ohms, which translates to less than half as many watts at 4 ohms. And they often post peak watts of output, not actual usable watts.

Peak wattage is not the operating wattage…
An amp which has peak wattage of 200 watts may have an operating efficiency of 125-150 watts. Peak watts are similar to saying your little 4 cylinder auto can reach 100 mph top speed (161 kph). Your car may reach that speed at the top of it's range, but you cannot run it at that speed all day. Run an amp at peak output and you will hear distortion, and build up heat, and maybe blow it's internal fuse.

It takes approximately 10X the power (multiply by 10) to double the volume of an amp if all other considerations are equal.

To double the volume of a 60 watt amp would take 600 watts…

If you are supplying an audience of 500 with just your amp…you are going to need a lot of power, and bigger speakers than either of the two amps you mentioned. But if you are playing a coffee house, they may both be adequate.

It's far more complex than I have explained here, but you don't want/need a theory lecture.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by varmonter

I have heard that wattage can produce a more
Defined and clearer sound at a lower volume level.
So the more watts you have the better your
Amp would sound at a lower volume. As I am not
Playing rock and roll or trying to compete with
A drum kit and stratocaster. This is more of
A concern for me to have a better sound at low
Volume.

This is generally true. However...speaker design has something to say about that.
If the design of the entire amp is to give you Maximum performance at a certain volume level, going above or below that will alter the results.
As many have already stated there are many variables.
If you seek clean balanced sound at low volumes, a Fishman Mini at 60 watts will do that very well.

[Reasley]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

They are not more powerfull. They are louder.

Your ear does not hear the same all frequencies. For example, we are very sensitive to mid and almost deaf to low frequency sounds. This is the reason why a Blackstar Fly electric guitar amp can sound really loud althought is is so small. There are only mids.

AER 60/3 is a bit mid focused and quite directional. So you will hear it as being as loud or louder the Schertler JAM 200.

The Schertler JAM 200 is a much fuller sounding amp. There is a lots of bass (probably a bit more than the guitar acoustic sound). Bass needs a lots of power to be heard. If you look at bi-amplified speaker, you'll see that most of the power will be dedicated to the woofer and much less to the tweeter. So The Schertler will dedicated a huge amount of energy (could be half) just to have the woof/boom sound you will never get with an AER. It's not 100% musical, but you clearly feel it.

If you want to compare loudness, you should look at Sound Pressure level (SPL) at 1 meter. It is defined at 1 kHz where the ear is very sensitive. You will be surprised.

Look for Fletcher–Munson curves explanation for further details

Let's take the example of the Loudbox performer user guide

There is 130W overall
80W for the woofer (80Hz to 600 Hz)
40W for the midrange (600 Hz to 4kHz)
10W for the tweeter (4KHz to 20 kHz)
and a SPL@1m of 117dB SPL

Most of what you perceive as loud comes from the midrange (40W). More than half of the power (80W) is dedicated to make the sound full and give body to the tone (woofer). 10W are dedicated to clarity and airiness (tweeter).

PS: I have two JAM 150 and used to have a compact 60 for one year. I like bass so I kept the JAM. But if you don't need the bass, AER is a great amp.

My 2 cents
Cuki

Wow, Cuki --

Incredible post!!! This, too, is something that I've always wanted to know and your explanation is fantastic.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by varmonter

I have heard that wattage can produce a more
Defined and clearer sound at a lower volume level.
So the more watts you have the better your
Amp would sound at a lower volume. As I am not
Playing rock and roll or trying to compete with
A drum kit and stratocaster. This is more of
A concern for me to have a better sound at low
Volume.

Gotta beware old guitarist's tales


As others have already said it depends ....

First off what kind of 'Wattage" RMS or Peak and at what level of distortion is the rating being given, what OHM rating etc.etc.etc.

"All things" being equal more wattage theoretically allows more headroom before clipping. But "all things' are seldom if ever.......Equal

"Defined" and "clearer" is far more to involved than just wattage, it is much much more a function of the quality of design of cabinet , speaker, components, and circuits .

A poorly designed and usually cheap amp , at 100 or 200 watts can sound muddy, dirty, distorted, and like crap at any volume level

A really well designed amp with quality components 50 or 30 or even 20 watts can be far cleaner throughout and if analog will usually go into distortion with a more pleasing sound.

[kaos]

Good question. Great answers!

[varmonter]

Originally Posted by KevWind

Gotta beware old guitarist's tales


As others have already said it depends ....

First of what kind of 'Wattage" RMS or Peak and at what level of distortion is the rating being given, what OHM rating etc.etc.etc.

"All things" being equal more wattage theoretically allows more headroom before clipping. But "all things' are seldom if ever.......Equal

"Defined" and "clearer" is far more to involved than just wattage, it is much much more a function of the quality of design of cabinet , speaker, components, and circuits .

A poorly designed and usually cheap amp , at 100 or 200 watts can sound muddy, dirty, distorted, and like crap at any volume level

A really well designed amp with quality components 50 or 30 or even 20 watts can be far cleaner throughout and if analog will usually go into distortion with a more pleasing sound.

Yes of course .. I should have added "all things being equal"

[bho]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

They are not more powerfull. They are louder.

Your ear does not hear the same all frequencies. For example, we are very sensitive to mid and almost deaf to low frequency sounds. This is the reason why a Blackstar Fly electric guitar amp can sound really loud althought is is so small. There are only mids.

AER 60/3 is a bit mid focused and quite directional. So you will hear it as being as loud or louder the Schertler JAM 200.

The Schertler JAM 200 is a much fuller sounding amp. There is a lots of bass (probably a bit more than the guitar acoustic sound). Bass needs a lots of power to be heard. If you look at bi-amplified speaker, you'll see that most of the power will be dedicated to the woofer and much less to the tweeter. So The Schertler will dedicated a huge amount of energy (could be half) just to have the woof/boom sound you will never get with an AER. It's not 100% musical, but you clearly feel it.

If you want to compare loudness, you should look at Sound Pressure level (SPL) at 1 meter. It is defined at 1 kHz where the ear is very sensitive. You will be surprised.

Look for Fletcher–Munson curves explanation for further details

Let's take the example of the Loudbox performer user guide

There is 130W overall
80W for the woofer (80Hz to 600 Hz)
40W for the midrange (600 Hz to 4kHz)
10W for the tweeter (4KHz to 20 kHz)
and a SPL@1m of 117dB SPL

Most of what you perceive as loud comes from the midrange (40W). More than half of the power (80W) is dedicated to make the sound full and give body to the tone (woofer). 10W are dedicated to clarity and airiness (tweeter).

PS: I have two JAM 150 and used to have a compact 60 for one year. I like bass so I kept the JAM. But if you don't need the bass, AER is a great amp.

My 2 cents
Cuki

Thank you Cuki. This is a really, really helpful explanation.

I note that you used the Fishman Loudbox Performer as an example. I have a Loudbox Mini, and I am thinking of upgrading to the Loudbox Artist for gigs in small venues with my band. Based on your analysis, do you think the Loudbox Artist will be both loud enough, and have sufficient bass?

Thanks,
Batur

[Cuki79]

Hi Bho,

Fishman loudbox Artist 113dB SPL are already loud for an acoustic amp. Note that you might experience feedback when turned to the max (depending on your pickup).

One important thing in my opinion to optimize the loudness is to have "real gain" pots and not just "volume pots". (The old Schertler Jams had fixed gains for example). For example people have been struggling with the JBL eon one (1st version) because it was too quiet... because the preamp gain was factory set too low.

Here are some examples of SPL: Beware there is most of the time no indication whether it is max SPL or continuous SPL

Fishman Loudbox Performer SPL 117 dB
Fishman Loudbox Artist SPL 113 dB
Schertler JAM (200W) SPL max 114 dB
ACUS 8 (200W) SPL max 116 dB
Schertler JAM 400W SPL max 123 dB
Bose L1C 112 dB peak and 108 dB continuous
QSC K8.2 128 dB peak and 122 dB continuous

For me it is not clear if you want to amplify only your acoustic guitar or other instruments.

I think the other people are right. You should try those amps. Borrow or rent and try them for a few gigs. You might decide the tone is not right or the amp is too heavy to carry. Loudness is not the only criterium.

Note that all acoustic amps colors the tone which is usually a good thing since acoustic pickup are not that nice sounding (see MartinGitDave on pickups: "All pickups stink").

Also note, that the best tone of your acoustic guitar "alone" through the amp might not be the best "in a band configuration". In a band configuration, if you have a bass player for example, you'd better cut through the mix. The lows and low mid frequency from your guitar can sound muddy and compete with the bass frequencies. In this case, you'd probably be happy with a mid focused amp.

PS: Since you already have a Fishman Loudbox mini, why don't you just plug the DI out to the house PA? I mean if you are in a band, there must be a PA somewhere for the other instruments...

Cuki

[bho]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Hi Bho,

Fishman loudbox Artist 113dB SPL are already loud for an acoustic amp. Note that you might experience feedback when turned to the max (depending on your pickup).

One important thing in my opinion to optimize the loudness is to have "real gain" pots and not just "volume pots". (The old Schertler Jams had fixed gains for example). For example people have been struggling with the JBL eon one (1st version) because it was too quiet... because the preamp gain was factory set too low.

Here are some examples of SPL: Beware there is most of the time no indication whether it is max SPL or continuous SPL

Fishman Loudbox Performer SPL 117 dB
Fishman Loudbox Artist SPL 113 dB
Schertler JAM (200W) SPL max 114 dB
ACUS 8 (200W) SPL max 116 dB
Schertler JAM 400W SPL max 123 dB
Bose L1C 112 dB peak and 108 dB continuous
QSC K8.2 128 dB peak and 122 dB continuous

For me it is not clear if you want to amplify only your acoustic guitar or other instruments.

I think the other people are right. You should try those amps. Borrow or rent and try them for a few gigs. You might decide the tone is not right or the amp is too heavy to carry. Loudness is not the only criterium.

Note that all acoustic amps colors the tone which is usually a good thing since acoustic pickup are not that nice sounding (see MartinGitDave on pickups: "All pickups stink").

Also note, that the best tone of your acoustic guitar "alone" through the amp might not be the best "in a band configuration". In a band configuration, if you have a bass player for example, you'd better cut through the mix. The lows and low mid frequency from your guitar can sound muddy and compete with the bass frequencies. In this case, you'd probably be happy with a mid focused amp.

PS: Since you already have a Fishman Loudbox mini, why don't you just plug the DI out to the house PA? I mean if you are in a band, there must be a PA somewhere for the other instruments...

Cuki

Thanks Cuki. I just asked this question in a different post, but does plugging an amp into the PA make the power/wattage issue irrelevant? Can I get as much out of the Mini as the Artist when plugged into a PA?

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by bho

Thanks Cuki. I just asked this question in a different post, but does plugging an amp into the PA make the power/wattage issue irrelevant? Can I get as much out of the Mini as the Artist when plugged into a PA?

I think yes... but I you have doubts just listen to Tommy Emmanuel (around 1:50):


On this picture from Guitar world magazine, you see how he sets the AER alpha (he uses either alpha or compact 60).



The guitar jack is on top. There is a jack going out on the back of the amp.

The jack position corresponds to the line out (on this version of the AER alpha)

You can see on the picture that the line out jack goes to BSS active DIs (bottom of the picture) that probably send balanced signal to the PA (Front Of the House).

Note: Why does he use BSS active DIs instead of the AER DI ouput? I guess when you are a PRO musician, you prefer to rely on output gear that can work on battery, have ground lift and are easy to replace (he has 2) and fix in case of trouble. Moreover, the active DI can replace the AER if it fails... He would just need to borrow a monitor speaker from the venue.

If I remember well, I think I read he might use the AER DI out when travelling light... But I could be wrong.

Cuki