near or far

[localguitarist]

Originally Posted by Ty Ford

Chris. Right you are. I have heard some very nasty sounding acoustics over the last five years. When someone comes here to record acoustic guitar, I have them play the part while I move around in front of the instrument in search of the main lobes of sound. Each guitar projects differently. SOme are pretty easy going, others are more challenging. The tough part, if you're the player and self recording is getting to hear what's going on in front of your guitar. You need to have someone else play the guitar while you learn about your instrument.

On the "concert hall versus studio" argument. Two people in the same concert hall don't hear the same guitar the same way due to variations in the room. And apart fro classical guitars, most players use a variety of pickups for live performance due to feedback problems.

If you record with mics set back in "a really nice hall", you're recording the hall more than the guitar. If you're thrilled by that sound then, fine, but it's not really about the guitar then.

My concern for home studio people reading this thread is that they come away with the idea that placing a mic several feet or more from an acoustic guitar in their own space is the best way to record. Most home studios have enough acoustic problems that the resulting recordings just don't cut it. Then too, cheaper mics with more selfnoise also become more obvious and not in a good way.

My solution is to use a really good mic (a Schoeps) and add reverb as needed; usually two different stereo reverbs. I've been recording for more than 20 years. When I had the opportunity to try a Schoeps cmc641 about ten years ago, my entire approach to recording changed. The difference was profound. I remember thinking, "Oh, right, THAT'S what my guitar REALLY sounds like!"

I don't care what you've used to record acoustic guitar, if you haven't used a cmc641 mic with a good preamp on acoustic guitar, you really need to rent one.

Of course, if you don't like the sound of your guitar, you can use a mic to alter the sound somewhat.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Thanks. I do really LOVE the sound of my instrument. I spent a lot of time and good money getting that sound. I will definitely post once we finish up the project so you can tell me what you think. I would like to try one of those Schoeps. Right now we've been using a AKG 414 and a 2247? Can't remember the brand. I'm tracking with a buddy and it's his studio and equipment. The preamps have made all the difference in the world. We're using a couple of different ones depending on the piece. Some we use a Presonus ADL I think and the other one is an Avalon. The presonus usually gives a more woody sound. We've also experimented with an SM81. With some good and eh results. We also tried a Blue the other day. Much 'thicker' sound, very specific uses as a result.

I think I'm more convinced of the studio approach at this point. I've really liked what we've come up with. When I reference the 'hall' I guess I really mean the 'room' in a smaller context. As the guitar is not a huge sounding instrument acoustically, only a smaller, more moderate space would enrich it's sound. TY are you using just one mic, its a great sound that you get? Course it is a 12 fret triple O, who's the builder? I've been curious about the Candy Rat records approach. In the videos it seems that they are using one mic a foot'ish' away with one mic. I would expect that to incorporate the room sound. Is there something special about the room they use? I know my instrument sounds completely different based on the room it's played in. We've had to use at least 2 mics to get an accurate sound in our situation. My Lowden has so much sustain that we use very little reverb.

cheers

[Pokiehat]

The Candyrat guys almost all record with multiple sources. I know Andy McKee's videos have the one mic just off the soundhole and then the mic feed is mixed with a K&K soundboard transducer and a Sunrise magnetic pickup. The even bass is from the magnetic pickup. The slap/pop/percussion is all the soundboard transducer which pickups up everything. Even tapping on the back of the neck.

If you want to experiment with stereo micing you are best off getting 2 mics you can afford and playing around with mic positioning. Don't do something like go without for years so you can save up for a pair of U87s or something since you don't get any practical learning done in the meantime. SM57s aren't always ideal but they are great, cheap, indestructible mics with many uses so its always good to have a couple around. So if you want to just get stuck in, bag a second 57 and try XY pairs, ORTF pairs and spaced pairs. Vary the distance and definitely do go wild with distance and direction to see where it can all go wrong. You will learn as much by screwing up and producing terrible recordings as you will by getting it right on the first take. As they say, a person is not just the sum of their successes but the sum of their successes and failures.

Don't worry if you don't have expensive mics. You can get great results with cheap mics and the knowledge to use them appropriately. Having a locker of expensive mics is more about flavour and workflow than anything else. If you know how certain mics work in certain situations it saves you having to get what you want by tricking it in the mixdown which is time consuming and fraught with all sorts of other problems.

Experimenting also lets you get a feel for critical distances when micing up which is something thats relative to the room size and dimensions rather than to do with fixed distances from the source. Experimenting with spaced pairs gets you a feeling for null zones and things like that.

As a general rule, if you don't like the sound of your guitar in the room you are recording in, you are unlikely to get results you are happy with using distance micing. Close micing lets less of the influence of the room through but doesn't replace it with anything so you will get a very dry sound. It wont sound like your guitar sounds when you play it in a room. Therefore you will need to either simulate a real acoustic space with reverb or you will need to move your recording gear into a room you do like the sound of. Also, if you have ever moved house you will know that your room sounds very different when you move all your stuff out and its empty. Cluttering up walls with shelves and pictures can act like diffusers which change the way sound reflects off flat surfaces. This is why some people stick egg cartons on their walls (makeshift diffusers) but I don't recommend doing this because it will turn your room into a giant fire hazard.

[rick-slo]

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field. Niels Bohr

[Pokiehat]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field. Niels Bohr

Very true. Its also humbling and empowering when a giant like Niels Bohr says something like that because you know that he was once just like you and me. Fluffing things up, walking blindly from one mistake to the next. So every time you get frustrated and feel like you aren't getting the sound you want, think of Niels Bohr for a second and throw yourself back into recording and get it wrong another thousand times. Eventually you will get really really good. Some of you will get so good that others will start to pay you money to record them. I know! Not monopoly money either!

[rick-slo]

It will always be an art and science. Whatever level of detail one has of the science of audio or one knows of how
a parameter change here will have an effect over there, the final arbiter is the ears.

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Reverb, either using a badly designed one or too much of one, is one way to really muck up the sound of a nicely recorded guitar. IMO for a realistic sound it usally sounds best and more professional when the reverb does not call overt attention to itself.

Agreed for acoustic guitar unless you're after something spooky where the context indicates more soup. Acoustic surf music, for example.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by localguitarist

Hey folks. I'm working on a project right now. What are your experiences with micing close to a guitar or set back in the room. The music is solo fingerstyle guitar.

thanks

Both of my CD's were recorded with no close mic'ing. The nearest one was approximately 30" and some were about 8'-10' away.

We also did not point a mic at the end of the fingerboard.

The mics were primarily Neumann and AKG on both CDs.

You can listen to clips of both on my web site.

HE
http://www.howardemerson.com/

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

Both of my CD's were recorded with no close mic'ing. The nearest one was approximately 30" and some were about 8'-10' away.

We also did not point a mic at the end of the fingerboard.

The mics were primarily Neumann and AKG on both CDs.

You can listen to clips of both on my web site.

HE
http://www.howardemerson.com/

IMO a couple of the best recorded CDs around. Usually a couple of XY mikes would not do it for me but the blend with the distance mikes, ect and ect really came out well.

[Ty Ford]

Originally Posted by localguitarist

TY are you using just one mic, its a great sound that you get? Course it is a 12 fret triple O, who's the builder? I've been curious about the Candy Rat records approach. In the videos it seems that they are using one mic a foot'ish' away with one mic. I would expect that to incorporate the room sound. Is there something special about the room they use? I know my instrument sounds completely different based on the room it's played in. We've had to use at least 2 mics to get an accurate sound in our situation. My Lowden has so much sustain that we use very little reverb.
cheers

Hey Chris,

Thanks! Yes, one Schoeps cmc641 into either a GML pre or a Millennia Media STT-1. If it's the video of "Look Ma, I'm Flyin'" you're talking about, that was the cmc641 into a Sound devices 442 mixer and into a Canon XL2 camera. At least one stereo reverb, most likely two...it's been a while, but I usually use two reverb plugins and blend them. There's also a phaser on the C part of the song about 3/4 the way through. I added that just to keep it from getting boring, then took it out after the part. I received some criticism for "junking up the piece" with the phaser, but I don't care. It works for me.

The guitar is a D28s Martin from @ 1969. Indian Rosewood, so I'm told. My room is definitely tricked out. It's a 25' x 35' space (minus about 20% on one corner for a stariway and bathroom.) wall to wall plus one area rug, 7.5 foot dropped ceiling with selective 1" foam panels on the 2' x4' acoustic tile, selective use of 4" foam panels on some walls, at one end of the room the entire wall is covered with built in shelves floor to ceiling holding my LP collection. That makes a great diffusion wall.

The room is tight, but not dead.

Regards,

Ty Ford